Questions on Brink of Battle for Faust

[seldon]

Given that Brink of Battle doesn't appear to have a dedicated forum I thought this would be a good way to get answers and seems I'm using the rules a lot for Dark Ages this sub forum could be a good spot

We are starting to run games of Brink of Battle often since the rules are now available locally from our club Great Hall Games.

Here is a picture of our latest game



We actually played two back to back games of the raid scenario. We tried two different viking forces one standard and one elite, vs a standard norman force. Both times the intruder broke, normans once then vikings.

The games were a lot of fun and we are liking the rules very much...

A couple of questions though,

1) the location roll against mounted targets, is that only for ranged combat or both for ranged combat and close combat ?

2) two weapon fighter, I assume that the re-roll is only when doing an attack action, not when you are rolling dice on defense. seems pretty obvious it is that way, but just wanted to confirm..

3) vicious, says it adds plus 2 to damage bonus... how is different than doing dmg for the weapon 2 points higher ? do I still get the +2 if my to hit was such that though I did hit it was such that my bonus to dmg is 0? ( does it then become a +2 dmg bonus ?)

4) master strategist says you get cmd/2 in activation tokens if the commander is ready when generating the pool... but if he is on the table he has to be ready, right, since recover from shock comes before generating pool?

5) signature item allows the commander to ignore the first failed command check. does this apply to the command check for rout if the condition has been met and he has not yet used this on the game ? and if the commander is shocked and I cannot use hid cmd rating I assume this item would not kick in either?

6) berserker, you get an action token free if ready and engaged to use in stand and fight or charge, but how could he charge if already engaged?

7) if after a break the original action can no longer be executed, can the player chose a different action for the same model?

8 ) if you try to forfeit an action with an engaged model and he fails the cmd, do I need to activate that model now?

9 ) to go into ambush the model has to reach to 1" of terrain that offers concealment, and have no enemy model with unimpeded LOS to him... A standard 1.5" (height) obstacle that would provide concealment but not fully block LOS from the enemy would be considered and impediment, correct? meaning that I can move to a hedge and go into ambush behind it even if there are enemies on the other side ( far away, beyond detection range) right? seems obvious but wanted to confirm.

I see more questions popping up over time. So I was wondering if this is a good channel to ask them or if you guys at strategic elite have a preference for a different channel ?

We are hoping to game often, maybe once a month, a lot of dark ages to start and then doing some fantasy with the Epic Heroes supplement that is a lot of fun...

regards,
Francisco

[Captain Blood]

Brink of Battle is a generic ruleset, not period specific, so Medieval Adventures isn't the place for it, even though you're asking questions because you're using it for Dark Ages games. So I'm moving your enquiry into the general 'other adventures' area, since Brink of Battle covers pretty much all genres and periods as I understand it.

I am pretty sure Brink of Battle has its own Facebook group etc, which as a channel over which the author has direct editorial control, might be a place to get a faster response on specific questions? Just a suggestion 

[seldon]

Yeah, there is no other channel that I know of at this point... ( I'm not a facebook user ! ) ... but this makes sense.. other adventures seems like the right place for BoB...

thanks !

Francisco

[Faust23]

Hi, Captain Blood is correct, we have a very active Facebook group. Its under the full game title, and we have a bunch of players that can answer questions around the clock. However, let me get you answers to these ones you've asked. My reply will be within the post in bold.

Given that Brink of Battle doesn't appear to have a dedicated forum I thought this would be a good way to get answers and seems I'm using the rules a lot for Dark Ages this sub forum could be a good spot

We are starting to run games of Brink of Battle often since the rules are now available locally from our club Great Hall Games.

Here is a picture of our latest game



We actually played two back to back games of the raid scenario. We tried two different viking forces one standard and one elite, vs a standard norman force. Both times the intruder broke, normans once then vikings.

The games were a lot of fun and we are liking the rules very much...

A couple of questions though,

1) the location roll against mounted targets, is that only for ranged combat or both for ranged combat and close combat ?

It applies to both. Any time the Cavalry model is hit you then make the Hit Location check.

2) two weapon fighter, I assume that the re-roll is only when doing an attack action, not when you are rolling dice on defense. seems pretty obvious it is that way, but just wanted to confirm..

Correct. It only applies to Attacks.

3) vicious, says it adds plus 2 to damage bonus... how is different than doing dmg for the weapon 2 points higher ? do I still get the +2 if my to hit was such that though I did hit it was such that my bonus to dmg is 0? ( does it then become a +2 dmg bonus ?)

Vicious represents edged weapons that do significant damage to exposed flesh. You must have a Damage Bonus of at least +1 point or it doesn't trigger the Trait.  If you hit exactly Zero (0), you don't add the +2.

4) master strategist says you get cmd/2 in activation tokens if the commander is ready when generating the pool... but if he is on the table he has to be ready, right, since recover from shock comes before generating pool?

For the Historical Rules it plays that way. But we didn't want people thinking that he got this if he was off table as Wounded. It also is written for any other possible effects we write in the future that would keep him not Ready after Recovery.

5) signature item allows the commander to ignore the first failed command check. does this apply to the command check for rout if the condition has been met and he has not yet used this on the game ? and if the commander is shocked and I cannot use hid cmd rating I assume this item would not kick in either?

Correct and correct

6) berserker, you get an action token free if ready and engaged to use in stand and fight or charge, but how could he charge if already engaged?

It stipulates that the Action Token must be used for either S&F or Charge that Turn. So, if the model is Engaged and gets the free Token, then the enemy model is Wounded by a different model and removed, the Berserker can ONLY use his Action to Charge another enemy model if the player thinks he can make it.

7) if after a break the original action can no longer be executed, can the player chose a different action for the same model?

Yes, reread the Break section bottom left paragraph on page 29 where it details this

8 ) if you try to forfeit an action with an engaged model and he fails the cmd, do I need to activate that model now?

Forfeit or Disengage? Not clear here on what you mean because Forfeit doesn't make a Check

9 ) to go into ambush the model has to reach to 1" of terrain that offers concealment, and have no enemy model with unimpeded LOS to him... A standard 1.5" (height) obstacle that would provide concealment but not fully block LOS from the enemy would be considered and impediment, correct? meaning that I can move to a hedge and go into ambush behind it even if there are enemies on the other side ( far away, beyond detection range) right? seems obvious but wanted to confirm.

Yes, a 1/2 inch obstacle would work as well. I recommend going through the Concealment and Body Proper/LoS sections a few extra times, because there is specific language in there that helps with these type of Ambush actions

I see more questions popping up over time. So I was wondering if this is a good channel to ask them or if you guys at strategic elite have a preference for a different channel ?

We are hoping to game often, maybe once a month, a lot of dark ages to start and then doing some fantasy with the Epic Heroes supplement that is a lot of fun...

regards,
Francisco

Hope that helps Francisco!

Thanks for your business and continued support!

Bob

[seldon]

Yes , this helps.. fantastic !

Grr, I don't want to succumb to facebook , is it ok if I ask you questions through here every now and then ? I love this forum and it is one of my favorite gaming resources, if you open a yahoo group or similar in the future I'll gladly join !

All the answers are clear. The rules are very carefully crafted and the language and terms are written with lawyerlike care, so for example the point you made about the unimpeded LOS seemed that way. I just wanted to verify to frame my understanding of the rules correctly.

Regarding the forfeiture I meant that on page 30 when it talks about players voluntarily forfeiting actions it indicates that if you try to do that with a model engaged you do need to pass a CMD, it is not indicated what happens, but I assume that if he fails the model will have to activate. Normally I would assume that is better just to activate and fight than forfeit, but youu can imagine a case of a poor trooper vs an expert counterattacker maybe the owner of the trooper just want to stall during his action.

thanks !!!

Francisco

[Faust23]

Yes , this helps.. fantastic !

Grr, I don't want to succumb to facebook , is it ok if I ask you questions through here every now and then ? I love this forum and it is one of my favorite gaming resources, if you open a yahoo group or similar in the future I'll gladly join !

I understand the FB thing, I resisted for years. I was hoping to have a Child board on LAF, because this is my favorite forum on the net, but too many people in our customer base use FB more than LAF. However, I do check LAF on a regular basis and post in the Fantasy Adventure Forum here as well for Epic Heroes stuff. You can ask questions here too and I'll get to them. 

All the answers are clear. The rules are very carefully crafted and the language and terms are written with lawyerlike care, so for example the point you made about the unimpeded LOS seemed that way. I just wanted to verify to frame my understanding of the rules correctly.

You hit on a couple of big points for me as a writer: clarity and repetition. But, it does sometimes beat a dead horse. I went kinda nuts on the things I knew power gamers would try to bend to their advantage. LoS and Body Proper are two examples.

Regarding the forfeiture I meant that on page 30 when it talks about players voluntarily forfeiting actions it indicates that if you try to do that with a model engaged you do need to pass a CMD, it is not indicated what happens, but I assume that if he fails the model will have to activate. Normally I would assume that is better just to activate and fight than forfeit, but youu can imagine a case of a poor trooper vs an expert counterattacker maybe the owner of the trooper just want to stall during his action.

Ah, got it. Its a CMD Base Check in order to be able to Forfeit while Engaged. The model's self-preservation instinct is what is being represented here.  If he fails the CMD Base Check, then he can't Forfeit his Action. He'll need to do a Stand & Fight or Disengage Action.

thanks !!!

Francisco

[seldon]

Ok,
we played another two games, this time with the fantasy rules. Here are a couple of questions that I wonder about.

1) a model that is routed, the moment he fails the CMD he has to do a random move, no matter if he activated that turn or not, and then will need to do a random move at the start of the turn even before he can do a steady action, correct ?

2) when doing a charge action you have to charge straight, so if someone is blocking you then you cannot go around him. What about if the straight path gets you to within 1" of another enemy who is already engaged ? Can you ignore him ? What about an enemy that is shocked, can you ignore him ?

3) a)  a model carrying the objective suffers panic and is routed, does he take the objective with him or drop it there ?
    b) If he actually takes the objective with him, the owner could choose to let him run with the objective through random movements turn by turn knowing that he is going towards his friendly table edge, is this correct ?
    c) if a routing model can take the objective and he ends up taking the objective with him, what happens when he leaves the table since when leaving the table he effectively counts as wounded ?

4) if attacking two enemies one of the two has longer reach than the attacker, even if the attacker targets all the attacks on the defender that has shorter reach the attacker is still at CBT/2 , plus he is at risk, and if the defender wins the roll by more than the attacker CBT then would he do a counter attack or would the counter attack come from the model that actually has the longer reach ?

5) we usually just use a red token to mark shocked guys, when you guys play, do you usually assume that shocked guys cannot be shot at if they were behind a wall or something since you actually put the minis on the side ?

6) we've always assumed that BoB uses the standard convention that 0 on the D10 means ten, yet on the hit location for cav it would seem that BoB expects 0s on a d10 to actually be 0. This could have particular implications, a random move roll of 0 and 1 could mean a move of 9 or 1. What is the convention?

7) target priority, the priority rules are clearly explained but appear to apply mainly to ranged attacks... when it comes to charge action, do I need to charge the closest enemy ?

Here is a picture of some little cards I'm making for our game. We have two edge cards, that way if you win the edge two round in a row you get those two cards and it becomes obvious you lose the next one.

I also have one break card but I will do special break cards for the stats that grant them

[Faust23]

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, its been a crazy week. I'll add my bold answers as before withing your post.

Ok,
we played another two games, this time with the fantasy rules. Here are a couple of questions that I wonder about.

1) a model that is routed, the moment he fails the CMD he has to do a random move, no matter if he activated that turn or not, and then will need to do a random move at the start of the turn even before he can do a steady action, correct ?

If a model fails a Panic Check he becomes Broken. He then must make his Random Check movement. And you are correct, he will have to make another Random Check in the SitRep of the following Turn before he can have an Action ordered to him to Steady.

2) when doing a charge action you have to charge straight, so if someone is blocking you then you cannot go around him. What about if the straight path gets you to within 1" of another enemy who is already engaged ? Can you ignore him ? What about an enemy that is shocked, can you ignore him ?

Enemy models that are Engaged may be ignored for Target Priority when Charging. Same goes for Shocked models.

3) a)  a model carrying the objective suffers panic and is routed, does he take the objective with him or drop it there ?

He drops it. You managed to catch something we didn't delineate in the rules. Normally this would have been covered in either the Objective Token section or Battlefield Psychology.  Good catch! So, that being said, Broken models cannot hold, carry, or contest Objectives.

    b) If he actually takes the objective with him, the owner could choose to let him run with the objective through random movements turn by turn knowing that he is going towards his friendly table edge, is this correct ?

This one no longer is possible with the answer to A.

    c) if a routing model can take the objective and he ends up taking the objective with him, what happens when he leaves the table since when leaving the table he effectively counts as wounded ?



4) if attacking two enemies one of the two has longer reach than the attacker, even if the attacker targets all the attacks on the defender that has shorter reach the attacker is still at CBT/2 , plus he is at risk, and if the defender wins the roll by more than the attacker CBT then would he do a counter attack or would the counter attack come from the model that actually has the longer reach ?

Nope, page 60 in the 3rd bullet point under Weapon Reach says that you compare WR individually while Engaged with Multiple Opponents. It is possible to be At Risk against one enemy model and not another based on their WR comparisons done individually. Similarly, Counter-Attacks are resolved individually as well.

5) we usually just use a red token to mark shocked guys, when you guys play, do you usually assume that shocked guys cannot be shot at if they were behind a wall or something since you actually put the minis on the side ?

We recommend players lay their figures on the side and then use the Body Proper (including base) as is for all LoS while Shocked. This keeps a consistency in LoS and play, and prevents the 'what if' factor out of the discussion. You can see him or not based on his Body Proper while on the side. His base sticking up represents any vertical scrambling movement, etc.

6) we've always assumed that BoB uses the standard convention that 0 on the D10 means ten, yet on the hit location for cav it would seem that BoB expects 0s on a d10 to actually be 0. This could have particular implications, a random move roll of 0 and 1 could mean a move of 9 or 1. What is the convention?

0 on a D10 always means 10 for BoB. Random Checks, as with Hit Locations Checks, subtract the lower number from the higher number. That result can be zero, but the 0 on the die is always '10'. So if you rolled a 0 and I rolled a 1, it would be 10-1 or 9 for the movement. Since you rolled highest you get to pick the direction of the movement, unless a game rules states otherwise.

7) target priority, the priority rules are clearly explained but appear to apply mainly to ranged attacks... when it comes to charge action, do I need to charge the closest enemy ?

Yes. Target Priority is applicable to both Ranged and Close combat Actions. The first two paragraphs are explicit about this. Other factors can change that, such as a close enemy model that is Shocked being ignored, but the rule applies to both types of combat actions. Pages 47 & 48 detail it out. The diagram on 48 shows how it works for close combat.

Here is a picture of some little cards I'm making for our game. We have two edge cards, that way if you win the edge two round in a row you get those two cards and it becomes obvious you lose the next one.

I also have one break card but I will do special break cards for the stats that grant them

Those are pretty cool man! We took a wooden disc and wrote Edge/Break each on a side, and the Break is place facing up by the player who has it. When he uses it, he hands the token to the Edge player who then flips the Edge side up so we can see who has the Edge from there. Use whatever works best for you guys.

Keep these great questions coming!

Noch Weiter!
Bob

[seldon]

great...

regarding question 2

I know I can ignore models engaged for target priority, but if my straight line charge path would take me within 1" of that engaged enemy before reaching my original target then I have to join the multiple engagement,correct.

In other words, the engaged model is not a priority but he still excerts a 1" engagement zone, correct?

Thanks,

Francisco

[seldon]

Also, another follow up. Bob have you guys tried any alternatives for multiplayer games, two against two ?

We have done two guys running the warband but maybe something can be done, like two 500 pts warbands but only one edge ( hence only 3 extra activations ) and one break per side..

thoughts ?

Francisco

[Faust23]

great...

regarding question 2

I know I can ignore models engaged for target priority, but if my straight line charge path would take me within 1" of that engaged enemy before reaching my original target then I have to join the multiple engagement,correct.

In other words, the engaged model is not a priority but he still excerts a 1" engagement zone, correct?

Thanks,

Francisco

Sorry I got this answered so late. I've been swamped with work and haven't had the time. 

So, while there isn't technically a 1" Zone of Control, it is correct that you could move your model past an enemy model that was already Engaged and pass right by him. If your model's direct route comes within 1" of said enemy model, you can keep going (this is where you get to ignore Target Priority), but if your model's Charge movement ends with him within 1" of the Engaged model as well, then he's now Engaged with Multiple Opponents.

I hope that helps. 

[Faust23]

Also, another follow up. Bob have you guys tried any alternatives for multiplayer games, two against two ?

We have done two guys running the warband but maybe something can be done, like two 500 pts warbands but only one edge ( hence only 3 extra activations ) and one break per side..

thoughts ?

Francisco

We have. I'll find the write up and post it.

[seldon]

Ok, got it on the priority and the 1" rule.

Would love to see the multiplayer rules that you mention so I'll keep an eye for that !!

Yesterday we played our first BoB with period 2. We did indians against colonial militias ( no pics though today, we were to absorbed by the game )

We had a blast, I was a bit skeptical for period 2 since some of the BoB mechanics are slightly different from skirmish rules aimed for that period but the game went great. As usual in one Sunday afternoon we played 2 back to back games switching sides and we had fun. Both times colonial militias won but not to list imbalances, just luck and simple game results. The first game was closer than our second game though.

A couple of quick questions..

1) bayonet, the musket and rifle include the bayonet trait on the summary sheet at the back of BoB, this appears to be a mistake since to get that trait I would assume that they actually need to pay the extra 5 pts of the bayonet ( also available on the same summary sheet ). In our case none of our guys had bayonets obviously but we probably want to be able to differentiate between those with and those without.

2) knife fighter, this trait indicates how the knife stats change when you have the trait, but it also says it can be stacked up to +3 combat, although it never really explicitly stated that you get a +1 CBT for fighting with a knife. An obvious assumption is that the trait gives a +x ( depending on the level,1,2,3 ) just like man at arms but only when using a knife AND the knife stats change as per the blurb on the trait, correct ?

3) can a commander with stoic re-roll the rout test if his force has to take one due to reaching break point? seems pretty powerfull for 5pts!

4) can a mounted model benefit from the ranger trait ?

5) finally guys that don't have close combat weapons have to fight unarmed or with improvised weapons. Originally assume almost anything could be used as an improvised weapon, for example a bow, but while playing yesterday it seems that only weapons with the "sturdy" trait can be used as improvised, so for example a bowman with no other weapon will have to fight unarmed since the bow doesn't have this trait. Correct ? ( it is obvious to me now after reading it but just wanted to confirm )

Again, lots of fun and it is great to be able to play this game once or twice a month, we are getting very familiar with the rules.. still yesterday we screwed up the cover using the 2D10 on the resistance roll rather than on the defense rolls !! oops... we are hoping to come up with a couple of quick CC and Ranged Combat quick reference charts to prevent these mistakes

cheers
Francisco

[Faust23]

Sorry I missed this, my answers are in bold.

Ok, got it on the priority and the 1" rule.

A couple of quick questions..

1) bayonet, the musket and rifle include the bayonet trait on the summary sheet at the back of BoB, this appears to be a mistake since to get that trait I would assume that they actually need to pay the extra 5 pts of the bayonet ( also available on the same summary sheet ). In our case none of our guys had bayonets obviously but we probably want to be able to differentiate between those with and those without.

You must pay for the Bayonet. Its listed on the Weapon Trait section to indicate that it can be used. I'll clean that up in our next edition.

2) knife fighter, this trait indicates how the knife stats change when you have the trait, but it also says it can be stacked up to +3 combat, although it never really explicitly stated that you get a +1 CBT for fighting with a knife. An obvious assumption is that the trait gives a +x ( depending on the level,1,2,3 ) just like man at arms but only when using a knife AND the knife stats change as per the blurb on the trait, correct ?

Stackable Traits allow you to take the Trait at the +1, +2, or +3 level by paying the appropriate points. The bonus for Knife Fighter is for Attack & Defense Checks in Close combat. So yes, you got it correctly.

3) can a commander with stoic re-roll the rout test if his force has to take one due to reaching break point? seems pretty powerfull for 5pts!

Yeah, I keep forgetting to do an official errata on Stoic. It does NOT allow you to re-roll a Rout Check. Good catch!

4) can a mounted model benefit from the ranger trait ?

Ranger Trait only works for Foot models.

5) finally guys that don't have close combat weapons have to fight unarmed or with improvised weapons. Originally assume almost anything could be used as an improvised weapon, for example a bow, but while playing yesterday it seems that only weapons with the "sturdy" trait can be used as improvised, so for example a bowman with no other weapon will have to fight unarmed since the bow doesn't have this trait. Correct ? ( it is obvious to me now after reading it but just wanted to confirm )

Yes, it will state what can be used as an Improvised Weapon. Otherwise, the model is unarmed.

Again, lots of fun and it is great to be able to play this game once or twice a month, we are getting very familiar with the rules.. still yesterday we screwed up the cover using the 2D10 on the resistance roll rather than on the defense rolls !! oops... we are hoping to come up with a couple of quick CC and Ranged Combat quick reference charts to prevent these mistakes

cheers
Francisco

I hope my delay in responding didn't keep you guys from playing! Keep the questions coming!

Noch Weiter!
Bob

[seldon]

Oh, we've been playing a lot... not many questions though if anything else pops up I'll ask..

In the meantime if you ever find those multiplayer rules we'd appreciate it..

we have played:

dark ages
napoleonics
fantasy ( legend of the five rings )
fantasy ( wargods of aegyptus, where we tried magic for the first time )

still to come, more napoleonics.. I'm thinking of testing an alternative version of the slow trait to add a bit of variety of actions in napoleonics , I'll explain later..

Also in July I'm going back to visit family in Argentina and hopefully I can get my 3rd edition warhammer minis for a few games with friends..

We've been playing an average of 1-2 games per month.. We might even do some playtesting of the sci fi rules with 40K minis

We'll keep posting ..

cheers
Francisco