ECW: Col. Francis Lord Willoughby's Coat Colours?

[sepoy1857]

Hello Chaps!
Does anyone know or have a good idea of what Francis, Lord Willoughby of Parham’s Regiment of Foot (Lincolnshire) coat colours were? They had Watchet (pale blue) Colours.

Thanks!

[westwaller]

I can have a look at my Ecw books and see if there is anything. Watchet was a coat colour for one of the trained bands in the Bishops War, if I remember what I have read correctly... Are you sure your source for the flag colours as watchet does not mean the Coat colours are that? After all it seems coat colours for regiments are marginally easier to find than flag colours... Not meaning to be rude, but it does get confusing sometimes! Anyway I will have a look and see what I have got on it 😊

[westwaller]

Peachy & Princes Flags & Colours has no information about the coat colours of Willoughbys during the Ecw, sorry.

However, they are listed for the Bishops War that preceded the Ecw. They were raised in Ireland and their flag colours are listed as being Green & White. There is some speculation but no conclusion about them being either stripey or following the gyronny system.

It may well be the case that Willoughby raised a different regiment for the Ecw, although they are not listed in the index of ecw regiments in 'Flags & Colours'. I still will check my other sources.

[sepoy1857]

Well this is my source: http://wiki.bcw-project.org/parliamentarian/foot-regiments/lord-willoughby-of-parham
It say's watchet with white crosses.

Active   1643 to 1644
Country   England
Allegiance   Parliamentarian
Conflicts   First Civil War
Type   Foot
Colonel   Lord Willoughby of Parham
Area Raised   
Flag Colour   watchet (pale greenish blue)
Flag Design   white crosses
Field Armies   

Was there a typical colour used by Parliamentarians in Lincolnshire? I could go with grey coats I suppose as a sort of fallback.

[westwaller]

@Sepoy1857, Finding not much on Willoughbys I did a quick google and that information was what I came up with. I can confirm you from a snippet of information in John Barretts. 'Cavaliers' that the regiment with the green colours from Ireland is a different one. As the remnants of this incarnation of Willoughbys seem to have been sent from Ireland to fight on the Royalist side. Unfortunately the poor souls were intercepted by the Parliamentary navy and over 70 of them were thrown into the sea.

Of the next incarnation, I can find very little information that is not provided by the Bcw website where you got your information. Lacking any information on coat colours for them one can only go with supposition. You could go with grey or you could try to find other regiments that were with Willoughbys at Gainsborough and see if there does appear to be a common colour worn by the regiments in the area. By about 1644, they become part of the Eastern Association under Montagu, according to website so, by then they would probably have worn red coats with (white facings?)

[sepoy1857]

There were Sir Miles Hobart's Foot from Norfolk - Redcoats. I'm basically looking for interesting units that usually don't get painted up or represented in games.  OK I am doing Tillier's and Newcastle's Whitecoats... They're famous I guess. I am looking into who was at Gainsborough and Newark for a start. Some very interesting campaigns. Also Richard Byron's raid on Nottingham! An article in an old issue f WI inspired me! I had to get the Trent miniatures Byron figure to command the troops. Already had the Rupert figure.

[westwaller]

I try to find interesting and different regiments to paint too actually. I have to say, it often leads to confusion- There is usually more than one person of the same name commanding a regiment in the ECW; I am sure that I have even read that there were two Oliver Cromwells on the parliamentary side for a start.
One of my own regiments is James Carrs or Kerrs but not all the references to Carr or his regiment are for the same person. His first Regiment was never fully raised, so was disbanded and his second was drawn from or reduced into the Plymouth garrison.

Alongside this there are two other Carrs, one with a regiment on the Isle of Wight, that probably never left the Isle of Wight and another was a different Colonel! Sorry to ramble, but I imagine you come up against similar confusion. You often find that you come back to the more widely known regiments by the time of the New Model Army anyway. For instance Carrs were reduced into Ralph Weldons regiment according to Laurence Spring.

If in doubt over coat colours go for either red or blue, Brasseys 'uniforms of the Ecw' makes a case for these being the most common coat colours aside from grey or undyed wool by looking at the amounts of Indigo and Madder, imported into the country at the time.

It might be worth you trying to get hold of a copy of Laurences Springs book on the Eastern Association if you do not have it. (I have his one on the regiments of Wallers Southern Association and I find it really useful as it gives flag and coat colours when known) This should cover some of the Parliamentary regiments you are interested in- I think the Eastern Association covered Lincolnshire too.

I had hoped to put a link to this book, but a quick google tells me a new edition of the book is supposed to be published this year, so at the moment it is out of print. It should be available from the Pike and Shot society or Stuart Press later this year.

[fastolfrus]

Don't forget there's the new English Civil War museum opening in Newark this May....about the same time as the election. They'll be desperate for exhibits & stuff for the gift shop.
Is that an omen or portent?

:~}

According to Blount, Willoughby's cornet 1642-43 bore the motto "Non solem sed nubilos" (not the sun but the clouds) bearing an image of the sun enveloped by clouds.
Source: University of Toronto Press, The Emblematic Flag Devices of the English Civil Wars, vol 3.

[sepoy1857]

westwaller: Yes I need to give Dave a shout and see if he has some used copies - I think will come in handy. I see he has Vol. 2 I think... I'll have to look again.  I'm going to paint up a generic Grey coated Parliamentarian regiment - just swap out the Colours; it's going to be John Gell's and John Hutchinson's. And probably eventually a generic Red coated regiment as well.

fastolfrus: Thanks! I'ven never been to England so that would be a treat indeed to see the Newark Museum! Also interested in the war in Yorkshire! Thanks for the info on the flag - Willouby had a Troop of Horse and a unit of Dragoons as well as the Foot regiment! That book is something like $100+ per Volume   But it sounds good.

[fastolfrus]

The book is very good - but can be available free through university. You need to find a student local to you.

[sepoy1857]

The book is very good - but can be available free through university. You need to find a student local to you.

Yeah the local University MAY have a copy in their Library...worth a look! Thanks! Also just found OOB's for Siege of Newark - both sides! There was a ton of units involved - must have all been relatively small.