Teutonic Order, 1410

[ShinRa]

Hi all,

I'm gathering parts and beginning to paint a Teutonic Order retinue for Lion Rampant themed on the forces at the time of the Battle of Tannenberg/Grunwald in 1410. Perry Miniatures are awesome, so I plan to mostly use their Agincourt range which as far as I can tell is the right sort of armour and equipment.

However I'm finding it difficult to find information on the foot sergeants of the Order. I gather that they were fielded as spearmen and crossbowmen, but what about their armour? Did the have shields or pavises?

Any information on this would be greatly appreciated, I'd really prefer not to have to go back and redo miniatures!

[le bon roi rene]

 1410 Sword brothers and various order infantry would have most definitely used shields and pavises. Equipment would have been similar to those found in wealthier german armies of the period.

Cheers,
Fred

BTW, if you can get your hands on some spare plastic capes from some of the Warlord or Fireforge plastic dark age and medieval sets, it makes a nice touch to set religious order troops apart from secular troopers.

[doowopapocalypse]

The Teutonic Order also fielded a large body of mercenaries, and some rather fine artillery (though I've seen some theories that this means handgunners as opposed to cannon)

[ShinRa]

Thanks guys! Fred, would it be right then to mix pavises with shields amongst a unit of spearmen? Or one or the other? It is an excellent idea about the plastic cloaks, hopefully they'll fit. I plan to buy a box of Fireforge Teutonic Knights anyway for the barded horses.

doowopapocalypse, do you know what style of handguns these would be?

[le bon roi rene]

Thanks guys! Fred, would it be right then to mix pavises with shields amongst a unit of spearmen? Or one or the other? It is an excellent idea about the plastic cloaks, hopefully they'll fit. I plan to buy a box of Fireforge Teutonic Knights anyway for the barded horses.

doowopapocalypse, do you know what style of handguns these would be?

Well, pavises at the time were typically used to support crossbowmen while they reloaded or organized in units of spear armed pavisiers. I've never seen pavisiers mixed with smaller shield armed troops either in illuminations of the period or represented in game terms of today. If it were me, I would not mix pavisiers with general spear armed troops.

Cheers,
Fred

[doowopapocalypse]

Based on the timeframe, I was planning on using the Perry's Agincourt handgunners.

[Madmick]

Have you looked at the 1st Corps/Kingmaker range of Late Medievals.
http://www.1stcorps.co.uk/buy-online/c/1st-corps-figures/late-medieval/

[Atheling]

Well, pavises at the time were typically used to support crossbowmen while they reloaded or organized in units of spear armed pavisiers. I've never seen pavisiers mixed with smaller shield armed troops either in illuminations of the period or represented in game terms of today. If it were me, I would not mix pavisiers with general spear armed troops.

Cheers,
Fred

Fred,

If you remember Alex's research into the use of Pavisiers when he was researching, the sadly unprinted HYW supplement for WAB, he could find no evidence of them being used in conguction with spearmen. He was mainly looking at the HYw so some caution should be excercised over the issue.

Darrell.

[le bon roi rene]

Darrell, I'm not sure but I think we may be saying the same thing. I largely see pavises employed by "targ draggers" in support of missile troops.

[Atheling]

Darrell, I'm not sure but I think we may be saying the same thing. I largely see pavises employed by "targ draggers" in support of missile troops.

Yep. not really a troop 'type' as such.

Darrell.

[le bon roi rene]

It's a darn shame that Alex's supplement withered on the vine. His work was excellent and I really enjoyed our discussions. Alas, I think that WAB has also withered too.

Shame as it made historical gaming very accessible to a wider gaming audience. Likewise, I feel that a lot of the renaissance in historical miniatures over the past 15 years owes a bit to the surge that WAB created for a while.

Cheers,
Fred

[ShinRa]

Hi all,

I really appreciate your input on this stuff. It seems a bit of a minefield! So it is likely that Sergeant Spearmen would use a smaller shield rather than pavise? Gutted about this as the Perry spearmen I've been using are posed to hold a pavise, shields look odd because of the angle of their left arms.

Well I've started painting some spearmen with pavise as you can see below. Got another 9 on my desk which are currently being basecoated!



It's a shame about WAB. I liked how you needed relatively few models- wanted to do Teutonics for many years for it!

[Atheling]

It's a darn shame that Alex's supplement withered on the vine. His work was excellent and I really enjoyed our discussions. Alas, I think that WAB has also withered too.

Yeah, it was next on the list post WAB V.2 as well so it was literally missed by a hair's whisker  It would have been one of the most comprehensive of all the supplements as it had been expanded well beyond the HYW as you know. The manuscript will no doubt be sitting on the dusty shelves of GW for time immemorial now 

Shame as it made historical gaming very accessible to a wider gaming audience. Likewise, I feel that a lot of the renaissance in historical miniatures over the past 15 years owes a bit to the surge that WAB created for a while.

Well, that's exactly what i miss too. The social experience of playing in a campaign weekend- the friends made over the years that I don't really see anymore. It's quite sad really.

Also, commercially, if you were running a mini company and had the correct miniatures for a supplement, you were quids in.

Darrell.

[Captain Blood]

Well I've started painting some spearmen with pavise as you can see below. Got another 9 on my desk which are currently being basecoated!

Those look extremely nice. Looking forward to seeing more 

[Dalauppror]

I agree with Captain Blood, Very nice paintwork indeed !

Regarding the mix of large shields/Pavises for spearmen in a Teutonic army I wouldenīt bother that much, but the Crossbowmen wouldent have much use of a ordinary shield... I have given my medieval Crossbowmen pavises and the spearmen a mix of Shileds and Pavises so it look good to me. Then I field them as one unit of Crossbowmen and one unit of Spearmen or mix the minis up and field them as 2 units of Crossbowmen with Pavises @ 6 points each. As long as it look good and are historicly possibly I donīt bother, the medieval sourses arnīt that good anyway.
 
Looking forward to see more of your Teutonic Lion Rampant hoast.