War of the Roses

[gefreiter]

Hello,

A friend and i are going to do the WOR. On the internet there are a lot of nice pictures of painted armies/units of the period.
My question: what and how many banners/flags are there to be in the units, how does it works?
Thanks for any info;

Cheers,
Dirk

[Arlequín]

Hi Dirk... there is not actually a definitive answer for all that, just some conventions that were followed somewhat loosely. I have used illustrations from Citadel Six's site, so apologies for the watermarks.

Banners

Each knight or other person entitled to bear heraldic arms would have a banner displaying those arms, the size and shape determined by his 'rank', which conformed to those in the rest of Europe. These served no function other than to mark his presence on the battlefield.


Earl of Ormond's Banner.

'Retinue' Standards

Individuals who were hereditary knights (not knights for 'life'), lords, earls and dukes, usually had permission to issue liveries and badges to their household, servants and any men they led in wartime. A personal standard with that livery and bearing his badge(s), would also accompany such an individual, again to mark his position to his followers and to serve as a identifiable rallying point. These standards appear to have been 'swallow tailed'.


Earl of Ormond's Livery Banner displaying badges associated with him. There also seems to have been smaller single-tailed pennons in use, which may have been used for sub-sections of the household and permanent retinues (like later cavalry guidons).

'Company Standards'

Traditionally English units were divided into groups of 20 and 100. From muster rolls of the Hundred Years War, it seems that individual bodies of men raised by an individual of 'around 100 men' carried a standard. It is possible that individuals who raised large numbers of men identified each group of around 100 with one of their badges.


'Company Standards' based on the Earl's badges.

Apparently livery badges were hereditary within a family and associated with a title possessed by that family... so The Earl of Ormond had one for that title, another for being the Earl of Wiltshire, another for Lord of Wherever and so on.

Livery colours seem to have been changeable on the whim of its owner. John Howard as Lord Howard chose black for his followers initially, then went to blue when he became Duke of Norfolk. In 1483-4 his household men were still in blue, but he was also buying a lot of red and white cloth (the cheapest colours) presumably for the men he had promised to raise for King Richard III.

Anthony Woodville changed the livery of his servants every day through the course of a week long tournament. Lord Maltravers was another who liked black, but when he became the Earl of Arundel he changed to Red and White (as opposed to his father's plain red)... a few others did similar things.

There is a book by Freezywater publications "Standards, Banners and Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses" (or something like that), which is fairly inexpensive and packed with standards. It may have the odd error, but it is perhaps the most comprehensive and closest to the mark for my money.      

I don't claim the above as the complete and concise guide to banners and standards... it's just how I understand it.  

[Atheling]

And that about sums it up.....

I'm glad that Arlequin got here before me 

Darrell.

Hi Dirk... there is not actually a definitive answer for all that, just some conventions that were followed somewhat loosely. I have used illustrations from Citadel Six's site, so apologies for the watermarks.

Banners

Each knight or other person entitled to bear heraldic arms would have a banner displaying those arms, the size and shape determined by his 'rank', which conformed to those in the rest of Europe. These served no function other than to mark his presence on the battlefield.


Earl of Ormond's Banner.

'Retinue' Standards

Individuals who were hereditary knights (not knights for 'life'), lords, earls and dukes, usually had permission to issue liveries and badges to their household, servants and any men they led in wartime. A personal standard with that livery and bearing his badge(s), would also accompany such an individual, again to mark his position to his followers and to serve as a identifiable rallying point. These standards appear to have been 'swallow tailed'.


Earl of Ormond's Livery Banner displaying badges associated with him. There also seems to have been smaller single-tailed pennons in use, which may have been used for sub-sections of the household and permanent retinues (like later cavalry guidons).

'Company Standards'

Traditionally English units were divided into groups of 20 and 100. From muster rolls of the Hundred Years War, it seems that individual bodies of men raised by an individual of 'around 100 men' carried a standard. It is possible that individuals who raised large numbers of men identified each group of around 100 with one of their badges.


'Company Standards' based on the Earl's badges.

Apparently livery badges were hereditary within a family and associated with a title possessed by that family... so The Earl of Ormond had one for that title, another for being the Earl of Wiltshire, another for Lord of Wherever and so on.

Livery colours seem to have been changeable on the whim of its owner. John Howard as Lord Howard chose black for his followers initially, then went to blue when he became Duke of Norfolk. In 1483-4 his household men were still in blue, but he was also buying a lot of red and white cloth (the cheapest colours) presumably for the men he had promised to raise for King Richard III.

Anthony Woodville changed the livery of his servants every day through the course of a week long tournament. Lord Maltravers was another who liked black, but when he became the Earl of Arundel he changed to Red and White (as opposed to his father's plain red)... a few others did similar things.

There is a book by Freezywater publications "Standards, Banners and Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses" (or something like that), which is fairly inexpensive and packed with standards. It may have the odd error, but it is perhaps the most comprehensive and closest to the mark for my money.      

I don't claim the above as the complete and concise guide to banners and standards... it's just how I understand it.  

[gefreiter]

Thanks, its more clear for me now

[Cubs]

Yeah, I knew that .... sure I did ... who says I didn't.

I may have to remember this thread.

[Slayer]

thanks for the info

[jclaxton]

Thanks Arlequin. I'm going to find that book.

[Arlequín]

You're welcome Gents! I suppose it's too late to ask Freezywater for commission huh? 

[Captain Blood]

You're welcome Gents! I suppose it's too late to ask Freezywater for commission huh? 

Why would we need Freezywater when we've got you?

[Arlequín]

Because you never rely on just one source. 

[the scott]

Thanks for that information on the flags and standards something that I have been looking at for sometime now all I have to do is put some in the army I have been painting and post you some photos thanks again lads the scott

[steders]

Personally I would just keep putting banners in until you are happy, almost like flower arranging

[the scott]

I do so like your idea of lots of flags as we do it for the knights so why not the poor bloody foot and it is your army after all

[Captain Blood]

Personally I would just keep putting banners in until you are happy, almost like flower arranging

My approach exactly.

[Arlequín]

Personally I would just keep putting banners in until you are happy, almost like flower arranging

Well oddly that's how it would look and one of the reasons for the livery and standards. If you have a considerable number of esquires, 'county knights', life peers and anyone else who claims a coat of arms (i.e. a lot of people), it would get very confusing (particularly if it's a coat of arms four or five people are contesting their right to in the courts). Nigel the night-soil 'farmer' only has to match the colour of his livery jacket to the standard in the same colours to find his way over to his mates if he gets separated.

So yes, you can never have too many banners.