Normans vs Bretons?

[Parrot]

I am working on some dark age units for normans made from the Conquest games infantry and knights sets and I would also like to make some bretons but I am not really sure what bretons should look like.  Would they look much different from normans?  Both were from France and had contact so maybe they look the same?  Should the Conquest games mini be modified at all to appear breton?

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

I recall reading that, as depicted on the Bayeaux Tapestry, they were not discernible from the Normans.

However, I think it's understandable, if not 100% historically accurate, to want to differentiate the two. I haven't yet, but plan on doing the same, and intend to use shield designs with more Celtic influences on the Bretons, and maybe a few hairrier Saxon heads from the GB Plastic Thegns.

[midismirnoff]

I agree on that. I have no clue of real historical evidence, but the consensus among saga players is: like Normans but lighter, with round Shields bearing celtic motives.

[Michi]

I seem to remember to have read that they had less or lighter cavalry and were more lightly armoured in general. SAGA say that they made use of javelins as projectiles rather than bows and arrows, but I can´t tell if that is just a gaming tweak or the truth. I also read that you couldn´t tell their origin by their appearance, which makes them very attractive for wargaming purposes: Paint one army and field it as either faction!

[rumacara]

Indeed from what i´ve read Bretons would have more light cavalry and a predominance of round shields, although the proximity with eachother would make them very similar.

[Atheling]

Certainly they looked much the same as Normans during the 1066 campaign.

They probably performed in combat slightly differently though even the famous feigned retreat could easily be a myth. Is is a colourful way in which we as Toy Solider fiends get to move our forces in a slightly different manner from the norm

Darrell.

[Le Korrigan]

Hi Parrot,

The Bretons played a significant role in the Norman Conquest of England. Led by Alan the Red, the Bretons constituted one-third of the of the Norman forces at the Battle of Hastings. After this battle, many of these Bretons knights were granted considerable land-holdings by William the Conqueror in return for the sevices; the most prestigious of these fiefdoms is certainly "the Honour of Richmond" => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_of_Richmond

Regarding the army of Alan the Red and the invasion in 1066 and occupation of England, I prefer to use light cavalry for the warriors (no armour) and Norman knights (armoured) for the Hearthguards. During this period, Bretons and Normans fought together and Bretons progressively learned the new fighting techniques from their neighbours... it's more obvious after 1066.

Here is my first army => http://latanieredukorrigan.blogspot.ca/2015/02/apres-avoir-fait-mordre-la-tourbe-une.html

We can see some Breton fighters (the defenders of the motte-and-bailey castle) on the Tapestry of Bayeux (Scene 19, the Battle of Dinan, during the Breton-Norman War => https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Bayeux_Tapestry_scene19_Dinan.jpg).

The only small touch to differentiate this riders from a Norman army is the round shields and one of my standard bearer brandishes the Red Dragon.

To play a warband with Alain Barbetorte (Alan "the Fox"), I mixe kite and round shields.
Here is my second army =>http://latanieredukorrigan.blogspot.ca/2015/06/saga-bretons-3-distro-alan-al-louarn-le.html

To play a warband with Morvan, I prefer to use the Gripping Beast miniatures. They have a more celtic design for a Breton army from the 6th century to 913.

Originally of Celtic stock, our ancestors were composed of three tribes from Cornwall and Wales who fled the invasion of Britain by the Angles and the Saxons during the 5th and the 6th centuries. Many of them settled in the continental region of Brittany, where the race that came to be known as the Bretons.

Here is my third army => http://latanieredukorrigan.blogspot.ca/2015/02/armee-bretonne-pour-saga-les-guerriers.html

[foxweasel]

In reality I should imagine that they looked the same as the Normans, however as wargamers we like to have our units easily recognisable, why not just give them some different shield designs.

[Patrice]

Ooops I just noticed this thread 

Many players prefer to depict their Bretons with round shields for one reason: they want to be able to play them also against Franks and Vikings in a 9th or 10th century context (which, from a purely Breton point of view, was much more important than 1066 ) and there were only round shields then.

The 1066 Bretons were under Norman influence and fashion, so most of them had probably kite shields (although still fighting as skirmish cavalry with javelins, and avoiding shock and contact) but some round shields were probably still there and I'm not shocked to see them on miniatures.

An historical poem (from Ermold the Black) mentions Breton shields painted black in the 9th century ...but it may be artistic licence.

So-called "Celtic" emblems (triskelions, etc) had been long forgotten at this time (Dark Ages, and Medieval, Bretons probably did not even know that they had been Celts) and were not discovered again before the romantic 18th-19th century, so they are not correct for this period; but some players like them anyway ...and some of my friends decided to paint such designs on shields:
http://argad.forumculture.net/t632-les-bretons-sont-dans-la-plaine-heu
http://argad.forumculture.net/t389-armee-bretonne-xeme-siecle

There had been an interesting thread some years ago on another forum (which I don't visit any more...) if you scroll down I gave quotes of historical sources about the Bretons of the Dark Ages:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=239426

[Parrot]

Do you mean that there were only round shields then for the Bretons or that there were only round shields for anyone? When did kite shields come into use?  And with a seemingly large emphasis on horsemen, I take it that breton infantry was not widely used?

[Holla_die_Waldfee]

Very interesting here, because I work also on a norman/breton mixed army for Steinhagel.

[Patrice]

Do you mean that there were only round shields then for the Bretons or that there were only round shields for anyone? When did kite shields come into use?  And with a seemingly large emphasis on horsemen, I take it that breton infantry was not widely used?

Large round shields for everyone in the 9th century (I mean: Saxons, Franks, Bretons, Vikings... other peoples as the Picts or Irish still had smaller shields).

Kite shields seem to appear in Western Europe in the late 10th century (probably copied from Byzantium), Ian Heath mentions a first example from a Codex Aureus c. 983-991.

But nobody will object if you bring Bretons with round shields and/or with kite shields vs any enemies on a gaming table   I was just mentioning all this in case you want to be more interested in the mid-9th century (big victories of the Bretons vs the Franks, then battles vs the Vikings) and early 10th century (defeats, then victories, vs the Vikings) / or in the 11th century (defeats vs the Normans, then supporting the Normans in 1066 to invade England).

They did not appear to have any trained infantry. All of them who owned a horse always fought mounted; those who did not have a horse could probably fight on foot in loose groups of little value if their lands were invaded, but would not go far for raids. Anyway, in Western Brittany there were no open plains, so drilled infantry was not necessary. Perhaps there could have a few more footmen after the towns of Eastern Brittany were conquered in the mid-9th century but I don't know much evidence even for this.

[Orlock]

The Bretons tended to use the spear in an over arm fashion, like a javelin rather than the couched lance which the Normans used.

As a point of order, Brittany and Normandy whilst part of France, consider themselves quite distinct from the French even today.

[Atheling]

The Bretons tended to use the spear in an over arm fashion, like a javelin rather than the couched lance which the Normans used.

It's probable that the Normans didn't use the lance couched as later Medieval Knights/Men at Arms would do so.

If the Bayeux Tapestry offers us any real evidence (and it's the best we've got) then the spear was held out at arms length and not couched. An important consideration when it comes to considering the impact and impetus of a charge.

With that in mind, I don't doubt that it would have been a terrifying prospect to have massed cavalry charging at you meaning to do you no good 

Darrell.

[Little Odo]

First mention of Normans using the lance in a couched position is in the Alexiad by Anna Komnene written in early 12th century and talking about the 1st Crusade from a Byzantine pov IIRC. As per the Bayeux Tapestry they were held in a stabbing or throwing manner at least until then.