Trying to identify a kepi

[Doug ex-em4]

Not sure if this the right board but here goes.

My son-in-law gave me this kepi for Christmas. I'm assuming it's French but wonder what era and what service. It has a grenade badge which makes me think it is military rather than gendarmerie but I don't really know.

Any ideas?






Thanks

Doug

[Plynkes]

Gendarmes are military, part of the French armed forces. If memory serves their kepis do indeed have a grenade badge on them. Seem to recall them also having a white band around the top, though that might not always have been so. That's about the extent of my knowledge, I'm afraid.

[pocoloco]

I think this is Pompiers = fire service kepi.

See this item for reference:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-French-Pompiers-Kepi-Hat-Uniform-Grandames-Excellent-Condition-/111860049966?hash=item1a0b60e82e

[Doug ex-em4]

The ebay one is the same thing but I'm a bit dubious about his description "Grandames". Is that a misspelling of Gendarmes or does he think there's a grandma's kepi?

I'm inclining towards gendarme based on replies on various forums.

Thanks for the input and reminding me about the gendarme's place in the military.

Doug

[zuluwar]

hello

first : happy new year 2016 for all members

second : this kepi is an kepi of french fireman (adjudant)

regards

gerard

[Valerik]

Any ideas?

As Curator of the South Carolina State Hat Museum I approve & endorse this acquisition.

That being said I have nothing to contribute to positive identification.

Blame my innate indolence, or simple exhaustion, but I got nuthin'...

I do like it real well though!!

Whatta great gift, so Perfectly Properly Pulpy!!

Valerik

"I plead the Fifth Commandment"

[lou passejaire]

It's a French Interwar kepi, Lieutenant from a Light Infantry ( Chasseurs ) regiment ( or some less common units such as Transport company and so ... )

a gold braid is missing in the front of the kepi , above the visor

exemple :

[Doug ex-em4]

Hmmm - so it has now been positively been identified as Gendamerie; Pompiers and light infantry. Confusing.

Thanks for the input anyway, chaps.

Doug

[Valerik]

Hmmm - so it has now been positively been identified as Gendamerie; Pompiers and light infantry. Confusing.

Thanks for the input anyway, chaps.

Doug

Addicted as I am to hats, and struggling to overcome my rampant gallophobia,
allow me to throw some quick 'research' in, to further muddy the already turgid waters...

This hat IS a képi.
It is not American, certainly European, & likely French.
It is NOT Foreign Legion or Colonial Marine.
It is not from an overseas regiment of natives.
It is not nautical.
It is likely military, which, with gold or silver braid, makes it probably an officer's.
The Gendarmerie is part of the Army.
The Paris Fire Dept is part of the Army.

My Google-fu is unusually weak today, alas...

I have seen, somewhere, perhaps not online,large charts of képis with all their
widely varied tribal, trade and rank distinctions.  Today, they remain elusive...

I can find no photographs or drawings of firemen wearing a képi. They wear helmets.
Distinctly French Pompiere helmets. 
I caution each of you, Do Not Google 'French Firemen', you have been warned.

I did like this Signal Corps one, of two flatfeet jawing together, missing only the obligatory coffee & donuts,
but 'Hey there IS a war on ya know', showing a grenade-like insignia on the natty Gendarme, in complete contrast to the rather casual Snowdrop...



The képi's top is different, probably a rank distinction, as seems consistent.

The Cleveland Auction Company identifies it only as "French Military Kepi Hat"



Their picture (& others) clearly shows yours lacks buttons & a chinstrap.

An Etsy seller, FrenchMarketFinds hits all the right, & many wrong, notes:

"French Kepi Hat Army Military Police Vintage Foreign Legion Helmet Cap Black, Gold, Traditional Costume"

Doubtless in search of the widest possible market.  Other Etsy & eBay sellers identify similar specimens as Army (silver &/or gold) , or Gendarme (gold), or Fireman (red).
I doubt any of these 2nd hand owners/dispensers actually know...

By this photograph yours is modern, rather than Great War vintage:


Then I found THIS:

Au revoir to the kepi
BBC News On-Line | Monday, March 03, 2003 | John Greenwood

Au revoir to the kepi

By John Greenwood
BBC, Paris

The kepi: A national institution

Say France and what image comes to mind? - the Eiffel Tower, a long baguette, a bottle of French wine?

But there is no prouder symbol of Frenchness than the traditional uniform of the gendarme - the policeman with his distinctive kepi or hat.

For generations the kepi has been a familiar feature of French life.

"What's important is that the image for gendarmes is positive and they must be proud of their uniforms, like they're proud of their role"

Michele Alliot-Marie French defence minister

But now things are changing and, in a shock to many, the government has decided the gendarme's image is out of date. The uniform and kepi have to go.

France has a range of different kinds of police officer.

If you fall foul of the law you are likely to be stopped by an officer of the National Police, or maybe the Frontier Police, or, when the going gets really tough, the CRS riot squad.

If you are rollerblading against the traffic, you could even find a skating cop on your tail.

National institution

But the gendarmes are different - they are actually part of the army, although they carry out many duties of the police.  [emphasis mine]

Set up in the 1500s by the king to track down deserting soldiers, they became responsible for keeping law and order throughout the land.

By the 19th Century the kepi was born and it has stayed with the gendarmes every since.

The image became a national institution as famous abroad as at home.

But now the historic hat is set to be replaced by an American-style baseball cap.

Zip Top

"We don't wear it very often because it's embarrassing"
Gendarme Vanessa Angibaud

Asked what gendarmes thought about the loss of the kepi, Gendarme Vanessa Angibaud said:

The new uniform should be easier to wear "Some of them think that they will lose something that is traditional. But in fact we don't wear it very often because it's embarrassing. When we want to run in the street - we would lose it by running."

The new uniform also includes a zip top instead of a pullover - easier to put on and take off and easier to wear with a bullet-proof vest.

The change of clothes is only part of a government-plan to modernise a confusing system of policing in France where the roles of the various forces tend to overlap.

The gendarmes mainly look after the countryside - the police are in charge of the towns.

But the population movement over the past 100 years means that in many rural areas there is hardly any trouble, while the city police struggle to keep the lid on a rising crime wave.

If the kepi is to be consigned to the hatbox of history, the only other people who wear it will be members of the armed forces, like the French Foreign Legion.

The changes will go through over the next year. The kepi will only be seen after that at official ceremonies.

It will not be so much adieu as au revoir to this world-famous piece of French tradition.

I, for one, never knew that all French policemen were NOT Gendarmes.

I knew about CRS, oh yeah, but had no clue there were military and civil police persons.

Kinda like SWAT, Sheriffs & Police here in The States. 
I do understand that CRS are 'different', not subordinated to a local dept as is SWAT .

We may have our answer though.

Given the grenade insignia yours could be Gendarme, part of the Army,
but NOT Police, the badging is wrong.



Identified as a "Senior Police Officer's Kepi"



Named to the "Paris Prefecture"

To wrap up, I am STILL unable to positively identify your lovely, if incomplete, képi.
Is it a Gendarme castoff?  Or is it actual Army surplus?  Does a distinction need made?
It is indisputably YOURS!!  Tis a splendid gift I hope you treasure & enjoy!!!

I am covetous by the way, raging gallophobia notwithstanding, the SCSHM must grow!

Valerik

Curator, SC State Hat Museum

[lou passejaire]

It's not a gendarmerie kepi !
the gendarmerie kepi has 2 breads ranks on the upper crown :
the lower , quite large called "gallon d'élite" is the same on all ranks kepi
the upper one indicationg rank .

its not a fireman kepi
the braids on the fireman kepi are red for rank an files, silver for officers ...

so, as i have said

It's a French Interwar kepi, Lieutenant from a Light Infantry ( Chasseurs ) regiment ( or some less common units such as Transport company and so ... )

a gold braid is missing in the front of the kepi , above the visor

never trust the foreign ( for a French  ) auction sellers when the sell french stuff 
i have seen a lot of silly stuff on some US sellers web site ...

[pocoloco]

Good thing we have you lou

My google-ebay-fu proved to be wrong 

[Etranger]

Here's another one for the collection. Bought by me a few years ago, nominally a "sous-officer's " kepi. No date of manufacture on makers mark.

[rebelyell2006]

I don't know if it will help with identification, but are there any markings or labels on the inside?

[Etranger]

I don't know if it will help with identification, but are there any markings or labels on the inside?

Just the one in the photo!

[rebelyell2006]

A closeup of yours and the interior of Doug em4's kepis would help, as I can only make out a few words on yours.  Albert Delion seems to have been a military and gentleman's hat manufacturer in the late 1800s to early 1900s, and I do not know if he started the Delion of Paris line of hats or if it was a family business.