Are you a gaming snob?

[Michi]

I think Chandelier mostly wrote about the Napoleonic Wars, can't find any of his works on the TYW.

This thread is getting better now... 

[Hammers]

Interesting as all these small essays are, I can't help thinking that the time taken to write them could be better spent painting figures, which after all is what the LAF is all about  

Nownow... if that is true, what would be the point of this forum?

[Steam Flunky]

Interesting as all these small essays are, I can't help thinking that the time taken to write them could be better spent painting figures, which after all is what the LAF is all about  

Hes right though. I dont know how many times i have spent hours looking through the forum getting loads of inspiration to do great projects and then realised another evening is over without getting anything painted.

I know i am a bit of a gaming snob who really likes painted figures on well made terrain. Games on green felt with some unpainted figures dont really interest me but also dont bother me except at conventions where i dont think they belong.

I do understand that there are gamers at both ends of this hobby.
At one extreme there are the diorama builders who can work for years on a project before they are ready to present it for the first game. The game itself is of secondary importance. The fun is making it look as good as possible.
At the other end are the real gamers who love gaming on every level. If if looks great, good. If not, no problem. The fun is in the gaming. They have just as much fun with board games or collectable card games.
Most are somewhere in the middle.
If it is on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being the diorama builders and 10 being the real gamers i am probably a 3. I really want the game to look as good as possible but i also look forward to gaming on the table.

[eilif]

Interesting eilif.

I am also a person who almost exclusively wargames with miniatures - boardgames and computer games are to me at least related but different.

My point is that the gaming part is the key.  Many people enjoy painting - which is great for them - but I don't see how that is a core part of the hobby.

There are some wargamers whose entire collection has been painted by painting services.  Are they lesser wargamers because of that?

If it was just about "gaming" then chits would suffice and we wouldn't need this forum.

To over or under emphasize the "gaming" or the "miniatures" part is to shortchange the hobby.  It's gaming with miniatures. Painted miniatures and the games played with them have both always (since the advent of commercial wargaming) been fundamental to the hobby.   If one doesn't use painted figures, that's fine, but at that point they're either only partial participating or engaging in a somewhat different hobby. 

Nothing wrong with miniatures painted by a service.  HG Wells' figures were likely metal toy soldiers that came from the factory with a paintjob.  At our club we accept painted miniatures of all types. Tabletop and exhibition painted, self painted or service painted, hand painted or machine painted prepaints. 

[jon_1066]

There is a functional difference between a chit and a miniature.  The lightness of chits make them more awkward to play with.  In a game where there are no fixed locations provided by a board then the slight nudges, bumps and wobbles chits will receive make a difference.  Miniatures are also easier to handle, pick up, move, etc.  So there is a game play reason to use miniatures - not just visual.  Nicely painted miniatures definitely improve a games appearance.  For many that will improve their enjoyment.  But to claim that someone using an unpainted mini is engaged in a different hobby is absurd.  Does one unpainted mini in an army of 100 mean someone is "only partial participating"?

This reminds me of the old fantasy/historical divide from many moons ago.  Can you still find people that look down on fantasy or sci-fi miniature wargames as being lesser brethren and not true or proper wargamers?

[Rhoderic]

This reminds me of the old fantasy/historical divide from many moons ago.  Can you still find people that look down on fantasy or sci-fi miniature wargames as being lesser brethren and not true or proper wargamers?

I can. Some other forums have quite healthy populations of them. Also, the bloke who wrote "Achtung Schweinehund!" comes to mind.

[carlos13th]

I very much feel that people should hobby however they wish and its not for my to impose my preferences on others. I prefer to play with painted stuff but have played with non or more often semi painted miniatures before.

I realise for some people painting is the most important part and for others its just a chore and I can understand boyj points of view.

[obsidian3d]

When I started out, the 'hobby' part of miniature wargaming was a huge hill to climb. In many ways I'm still climbing it...somewhere close to a decade later. That said, it's a journey I've come to enjoy for the most part. While some parts of it can cause frustration, such as building that particularly difficult mini or having trouble getting a colour quite right, the hobby part is enjoyable to me.

Additionally, I have a lot more time to spend painting and building than I do to game...mainly due to the difficulty in arranging opponents. There are so many games out there now that it can be a challenge even just finding an opponent for ones game of choice!

It's sort of ironic how this pursuit can be both highly social, and highly solitary. I suppose many folks out there get together to do the hobby stuff too, but generally speaking I'd rather play a game than hobby if I'm able to arrange another person's presence.

[Captain Blood]

There is a functional difference between a chit and a miniature.  The lightness of chits make them more awkward to play with.  In a game where there are no fixed locations provided by a board then the slight nudges, bumps and wobbles chits will receive make a difference.  Miniatures are also easier to handle, pick up, move, etc.  So there is a game play reason to use miniatures - not just visual. 

You're saying that people play wargames with model soldiers, model terrain, model scenery, buildings and vehicles, because the tactile properties of miniatures make them easier to play games with than counters?

I think you're clutching at straws.

People like playing miniatures wargames, because it's a visual representation of little men on a visual representation of a little landscape. However crude or sophisticated, the appeal is the same. It's art. Little sculptures. We're fascinated by things in miniature. It's the enduring appeal of model villages, model railway layouts, dolls houses and everything else in miniature. De facto - it's a visual medium. Therefore what it looks like matters.

Play with unpainted figures if you want. Play on bits of cloth. How people enjoy their hobby is entirely their business, not mine. But don't tell me how it looks doesn't matter.

[Dim_Reaper]

How it looks definitely matters, but if it's not painted it still looks like something a little more than a counter. Yes, painting is part of what contributes to the visual aspect, but it's not the whole thing, is it.

And I don't care what anyone says. Painting isn't an automatic improvement. It's the fact it can finish off the whole picture when done well. It's not fair to overplay the role of painting above everything else that makes the hobby what it is, and by everything else, I of course mean everything else.

[Michi]

How it looks definitely matters, but if it's not painted it still looks like something a little more than a counter. Yes, painting is part of what contributes to the visual aspect, but it's not the whole thing, is it.

I have seen flat figures painted by painters who are way beyond my own skills, which looked even three-dimensional by their paintjobs. In that case I´d not shy away from saying that painting actually IS the whole thing.
 
First there is sculpting, that´s right.
A bad paintjob can obscure though not ruin a good sculpt.
Somebody who put a lot of effort to sculpt a nice miniature deserves my own effort of giving it the best paintjob I can.

[scrivs]

We play a hobby that is both tactile and visual, we owe it to ourselves to make what we do both feel right and be visually appealing.

Would you rather to feel like Napoleons ordering your troops to sweep all before them or like a geek in a pushing counters around on a piece of board?

If you showed a photo of one of your games to a non-gaming colleague at work, would they say, 'Bloody hell that is impressive?', my thoughts are that this is what I need to be aiming for.

[black hat miniatures]

I still object to the use of the word "snob" for people who want to play with painted figures on nice terrain....  There is nothing snobby about doing the hobby your way and having standards you wish to stick to.

I am also puzzled about when the "things don't need to be painted - painting is only a small part of the hobby" thing came in?  I am guessing with GW and the constantly changing army lists and new releases that people couldn't keep up with?

I started in 1974 and all the pictures of games I saw then had painted figures...

Mike

[jon_1066]

I don't think anyone has said that there is anything wrong with wanting to play with fully painted miniatures on nice terrain.  That is a goal and aspiration for nearly everyone.  The "snob" part is in being condescending to those that don't by refusing to play against them or saying that they are only "partial participating or engaging in a somewhat different hobby".

If one of my kids (or one of their friends) had built a model and asked to play a game with it I wouldn't refuse on the grounds that it wasn't painted but they could use one of mine if they liked.  Talk about spirit crushing.

I would also argue it is an arbitrary line.  Painted figures is simply a point on the grade between paper counters on the floor up to a custom built table with award winning miniatures.  Many things make up the visual appeal of something and fully painted minis is as arbitrary as any other point along that line.

[Silent Invader]

I understand the objection to the word snob as it can have nasty connotations. I'm an admitted wargaming snob, much as I am a wine snob, or beer snob, or a movie snob, etc., in that i am wanting to extract as much personal pleasure from the particular hobby activity as I reasonably can. To use beer as an example: I'll generally pass on a UK/US lager and take a Belgian craft beer instead - as my intake of alcohol units has to be limited, so I'll limit my choice to that which give me the most pleasure. The same with wargaming, I have more time to prep than to play, so to maximise the experience I'll invest in what I think contributes to the quality of the game. I therefore didn't interpret the OP's post as meaning any unkindness by the use of the word snob.

The thread seems to have got hung up on painted versus unpainted minis and as I was introduced to wargaming by Mr Featherstone's first tome (1968 edition gifted to me in the mid 1970s) his then thoughts on the matter seem appropriate.

Looking through the book, except for perhaps the WW2 game which cannot be clearly discerned, the minis are painted.

On p19 he says: "..... Goes to endless trouble to ensure that his figures are correctly equipped and painted"

On p21: ".... Nearly everyone at least paints his own figures ....."

On p34: "...Finally, all soldiers have to be painted to resemble the armies of their period and this can be done crudely or to a highly professional standard. The satisfaction seems to be in strict ratio to the trouble that is taken in this sphere."

I wouldn't go as far to say that using unpainted minis isn't wargaming but I do think that those who insist upon them are aspiring to a different overall experience than those that don't.

That I would refuse a game where the minis/terrain/rules do not give me pleasure isn't condescending, it's merely me choosing to maximise my leisure (shrugs). This is no different to genre: despite the brilliant work and efforts of Jimbibbly, Malamute, Dr.De'ath, Dewbackak and others, I have absolutely zero interest in gaming VSF.