Constructs Good Bad...taken for Granite???

[Timeshadow]

So there have been some questions about constructs on the rules forum and some people were asking for some love for constructs. I think they are ok but I do agree that regular 80/100gc soldiers are better in almost any situation. I do find this balanced with the fact that they are effectively free soldiers. So what do you think? Honestly I'd be all for paying for upgrades to constructs that would make them a little better (such as the ones available in the golem mini campaigne).

Should constructs get an item slot? (currently they do not have one)
Should constructs get weapon options?
Should constructs get a ranged option?
Should constructs get some additional spell resistance or immunities?

Discuss...

[Soss]

I use them a lot with my Enchanter but they are a bit limited. I use my Large Construct to hold treasure mid field only because he can't be wounded.

I think they are lacking in a couple spots, super slow and lower fight. So if there was a way to change some of that or really improve other aspects. Being able to add 2 handed weapons is cool. I think there are a lot of stuff in the Golem Supplement that can help this.

I think they should have one special rule that you pick from a list when you summon one. Or maybe a system like the Captain tricks of the trade, a one time use ability.

[Darkson71]

Voted "Good as is" because, like everything else in FG, they have their use if used correctly.
I wouldn't be adverse to them getting access to the upgrades from the "Golem" campaign though.

[rufus sparkfire]

It's hard to justify taking the animate construct spell when every other enchantment spell (other than control construct) is so much better. I like the idea of constructs though.

[Timeshadow]

I would also venture to suggest lifting the restriction of casting embed enchantment on constructs that have been enhanced using "Book of the construct" to be able to permanently gain +1 fight.

To do this you would need 1-Create construct.
                                    2-Book of the construct
                                    3-Enchant weapon
                                    4-Embed enchantment

That's 3 spells and an expensive magic item to get a large construct with stats comparable to a knight with 2 more health and one less move. Yes with another magic item(Oil of the construct) you could give him equal move and if you can get the "Script of the golem" you can get 2 more hp that's a total expense of 550gc and all three of your starting spell slots and an item you can only get in a senerio if you win. That's a pretty tall order and even if I did get all the ingredients necessary to do this I wouldn't make more than 2 of them as other things like speed and ranged capability are needed more than raw power. For total 600gc I can get a Knight and give him a +2 fight sword and I don't need to waist any spell slots. Yes the knight won't have as many hp but he will not be large and will have 2 more fight which is much more useful in most cases.
And this is leaving small and medium constructs out of the equation as regular soldiers will definitely be better then them all of the time saving very specific circumstances.

With all this said constructs are decent as is and some people will play them just for the flavor but they will never be great. I would like to see a few more construct specific items to allow for some more interesting options.

[ImhotepMagi]

If I were making changes to construct...

Construct: A construct automatically passes all Will rolls it is required to make, except those for Control Construct. It is immune to Steal Health, Strike Dead, Possess, Heal and Restore Life. A construct has natural weapons. It may not carry magic items, except those specifically designed for constructs. Constructs may carry treasure.

And while we are changing things:

Natural weapons: This model in never considered unarmed. It may not be the target of Enchant Weapon spells.

Large: This model has -2 Fight against ranged attacks. It gains a +1 damage bonus against models that are not large. A large model does not have its movement when carrying treasure.

[Timeshadow]

If I were making changes to construct...

Construct: A construct automatically passes all Will rolls it is required to make, except those for Control Construct. It is immune to Steal Health, Strike Dead, Possess, Heal and Restore Life. A construct has natural weapons. It may not carry magic items, except those specifically designed for constructs. Constructs may carry treasure.

And while we are changing things:

Natural weapons: This model in never considered unarmed. It may not be the target of Enchant Weapon spells.

Large: This model has -2 Fight against ranged attacks. It gains a +1 damage bonus against models that are not large. A large model does not have its movement when carrying treasure.

Umm giving it immunity to those spells is redundant if it auto passes any will roll (just saying). I like where you are going but I think it's a bit much with being immune to will save based magic. I'd drop the auto pass will and keep the immunity to the listed spells. this allows a construct to be transposed or blinded but not struck dead, healed or life leached.

[ImhotepMagi]

Umm giving it immunity to those spells is redundant if it auto passes any will roll (just saying). I like where you are going but I think it's a bit much with being immune to will save based magic. I'd drop the auto pass will and keep the immunity to the listed spells. this allows a construct to be transposed or blinded but not struck dead, healed or life leached.

Yeah that's what we get for typing on 4 hours sleep. And I forgot about transpose, but I don't know how to handle that one. I don't think it's too much, given how slow they are in the first place and not being able to carry items. But I may be wrong. Maybe if you were limited to one construct per spellcaster?

To elaborate: Without the immuity to will-based spells, it is only immune to two, short-ranged offensive spells, one if which is REALLY hard to cast. The other 4 spells it would be immune to are all beneficial, one of which is the best buff spell in the game.

[Timeshadow]

I like the mods to natural weapons and large (which would also effect large demons, animals and other monsters), and I do think they should be immune to any "control" other than control construct (otherwise why have the spell) and health effecting spells(including Strike dead) shouldn't effect them ether other than that they should be normal.


PS I like how the poll is going it seems currently everyone likes constructs but the majority would like to see them a bit better. Noone thinks they are overpowered as is.

[Corporal Chaos]

Feel they are good as is. They can carry treasure off table.

[Soss]

I like the idea of changing some rules to being large, currently it is only a negative effect.

Not encumbered and more damage to smaller sized models seems really good. That would help with the slower movement and make up a bit for a lower fight.

[Timeshadow]

Feel they are good as is. They can carry treasure off table.

But so can a 20gc thief or thug.

Which is better

Thief/Thug  vs  Small Construct

Infantryman/Man at arms  vs  Medium construct

Barbarian/Templar/Knight  vs  Large Construct

Yes you pay gold for the soldiers but you give up a spell slot for animate construct. How much is an initial spell slot worth to someone who really wants to use constructs? Both take up a soldier slot in your army so there is no real advantage to having constructs vs soldiers unless you are very gold poor and even then a 20-50gc soldier is 9 times out of 10 better than a construct.

I am not saying constructs are too weak but their currently (other than style which in my books is a major factor) is no real reason to take constructs over regular soldiers.

[Corporal Chaos]

@Timeshadow I see your point and concede. Yet for the fantasy and RPG bit it is a non eating low maintenance fellow who only needs a corner to stand in at night. Never runs or sleeps.... Just playing now.... I see they could be improved.

[Timeshadow]

Yup I agree Cpl Chaos, but I'm currently in an RPG where there is a player who is using a warforged (Humanoid intelligent construct) who never eats or sleeps but he is the worst guard ever...he wouldn't notice the sun rising until someone pointed it out to him and slightly on topic he has a terrible will save and is constantly being controlled by our enemies.

I am really looking for more serous discussion on the topic and enjoy a good conversation/debate.

[WallyTWest]

Is there a reason constructs should be more useful than undead or animal companions?



I would argue that if you wanted to make them more usefull, create scenerios where they are usefull or let their cool factor be part of why you take them. Frostgrave is brilliant because there are so few elements that are overpowered.