HELP! - Belgium WW1 Askaris...can they be anyone else?

[italwars]

Sorry to gate crash this thread, but I have a question regarding playing the Force Publique. This has to do with playing some of history's worst villains, so this would also apply to Nazis.

i'm really no touched for your supposed to be attempt to trash a topic concerning just an innocent  game from a less known sideshow, of course in wargame therms only ...but, please, try to be coherent with your great dilemmas and politically correct conscience...if you want to get into DA and love the minis..but , on the other hand,  you're really disturbed by "villains"...forget at all about DA and Colonial in general and be happy...

[Saucy Jack]

i'm really no touched for your supposed to be attempt to trash a topic concerning just an innocent  game from a less known sideshow ...but, please, try to be coherent with your great dilemmas and politically correct conscience...if you want to get into DA and love the minis..but , on the other hand,  you're really disturbed by "villains"...forget at all about DA and Colonial in general and be happy...

Dear italwars,

I am sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intention. I just wanted to hear from people who play the Force Publique. I prefer historical games to fantasy type games because they are historical and you can read up on a lot of history on the historical period you have chosen to play.

If you completely ignore the history of a setting why play historical games at all?

[italwars]

i do'nt feel offended ...and sorry i did'nt want to be rude with you..
but you perfectly answered the question by yourself..
with your approach..which i must confess you i totally disagree..you undermine the fundaments of this same LAF section which is called "Colonial Adventure"..if the FP Belgians minis with their "villain" legacy are so disgusting how can you accept (as i suppose you also collect or play with Colonial minis) castings from WF , OG, Redoubt representing those same kaki clad British in South Africa and their concentration camps for Boer Civilians.? and how can you handle Conoisseur, OG, Perry Dervish/Mahdist castings thinking about their speciality in oppression and enslaving? or Empress 1935 Colonial Italians minis using again concentration camps Vs  Lybian Civilians and gas bombing VS Ethiopians in 1935 ? ..and what about those nice Rolls Royce Armoured Cars and 20mm Tropical dress British from Raventhorpe that i have almost painted..maybe with an addition of an Airfix biplane dropping gas bombs in Irak..they could be more effective in my wargame tables?..there is also a firm producing in 20mm some Rhodesians RLI and Selous Scouts ..which, recently on the majority of forums, i discovered that they too are  classified as "villains"...what to to with them?
..i imagine that the full Colonial Adventure could'nt be played with those concerns..and if you really think further all of us wargamers..if we don't limit ourself to Lace Wars games "Messieurs le Anglais tirez les premiers" but continue to play with miniatures depicting villains from Colonial, Wild West, WW1, WW2, Modern..one day or another will end having our beloved library and game cellar full of miniature boxes...searched by the Police

[Saucy Jack]

i do'nt feel offended ...and sorry i did'nt want to be rude with you..
but you perfectly answered the question by yourself..
with your approach..which i must confess you i totally disagree..you undermine the fundaments of this same LAF section which is called "Colonial Adventure"..if the FP Belgians minis with their "villain" legacy are so disgusting how can you accept (as i suppose you also collect or play with Colonial minis) castings from WF , OG, Redoubt representing those same kaki clad British in South Africa and their concentration camps for Boer Civilians.? and how can you handle Conoisseur, OG, Perry Dervish/Mahdist castings thinking about their speciality in oppression and enslaving? or Empress 1935 Colonial Italians minis using again concentration camps Vs  Lybian Civilians and gas bombing VS Ethiopians in 1935 ? ..and what about those nice Rolls Royce Armoured Cars and 20mm Tropical dress British from Raventhorpe that i have almost painted..maybe with an addition of an Airfix biplane dropping gas bombs in Irak..they could be more effective in my wargame tables?..there is also a firm producing in 20mm some Rhodesians RLI and Selous Scouts ..which, recently on the majority of forums, i discovered that they too are  classified as "villains"...what to to with them?
..i imagine that the full Colonial Adventure could'nt be played with those concerns..and if you really think further all of us wargamers..if we don't limit ourself to Lace Wars games "Messieurs le Anglais tirez les premiers" but continue to play with miniatures depicting villains from Colonial, Wild West, WW1, WW2, Modern..one day or another will have pur beloved library and game cellar full of miniature boxes...searched by the Police

I know that I sort of answered the question myself - which is why I am interested in hearing what other people do. Do they just "get on with it" and play the game or have they had similar thoughts like me.
War is by definition a horrible thing and history is written by the victors. While none of the European colonial powers came out of the 19th century with much credit, but the Force Publique took it to another level though. I have no problems with British colonial fighting Boers or Mahdists as we are talking more of a regular war. Neither side were instructed to cut of hands to show that their bullet had not been wasted all in the name of profit and similar stuff.
However I completely understand what you are saying and I am not saying that one thing is more correct than another - I have no moral high ground.

[italwars]

Saucy jack..i was not there..so just some some thoughts..but i 'm not sure at all that quick methods used by Belgians were worst than those showed by others..it has been just a Public Relation and Comunication matter....Sudan fanatic ansars enslaved people and sold them all over the parts of Africa they reached like locusts.. they annhitililated everyone not ready to submit...same things done by their proxy imitation Dervishes in other parts of Africa like the  Emir of Rabah (accounts of carving out eyes to victims ecc...raping...enslaving ..) ...in practice an old fashioned and primitive ISIS wiss less technology...and.. the despatching of prisoners after Omdurman by British and their Sudanese collaborators did'nt make me think at a conventional war..
My solution:  just play with the minis you like and the faction you prefer in your games---vs those you cannot stand...also in a wargame..personally i always prefer  European/Imperial troops from every country and reserve those you consider "bad boys" to your opponent.who, in quite a few cases, is guilty to do not be the owner and the painnter of the  the minis on the table.. ...so he must do with awful painted grimacing toy soldiers in lances,  rusty muskets and sandals ..my .only exception are the  Zulus which i field and lead with a certain satisfaction

[Plynkes]

I have my own opinions on this topic, but I'm going to keep them to myself for now.


But in my role as moderator I have you ask you guys, if you want to pursue this discussion further to start a new thread about it. It's not fair on Happy Wanderer to turn his topic asking for ideas and info about his Force Publique figures into a general discussion about the rights and wrongs of colonial war gaming. This kind of topic has a tendency to run and run, and his original question could well get totally lost and forgotten in the hubbub and uproar. So if we must, let's have another thread rather than derailing this one, okay? It seems the polite and reasonable thing to do.

[italwars]

ok i understand....in the next postings i'll limit  myself  only to post picts and descrition of a wargame battle  played with those same kind of toy soldiers as referred by H W

[Saucy Jack]

Sorry to hijack the thread. Will not write anymore non-topical. I would however be interested in your views Plynkes.

Thanks italwars for your comments, I really appreciate them.

[Happy Wanderer]

Gentlemen,

Some interesting banter! Thanks for all the input and no probs on the diverted discussion. I pretty much got all the info I was after...thanks again.

For me the FP are a defining 'Darkest Africa' army and they shall be finding their way into my collection in time.

I had the 'good fortune' to take one such force to task only a little while back...

https://agrabbagofgames.wordpress.com/2016/01/08/death-in-the-dark-continent/

...my FP won't suffer like these ones did!!

Cheers

HW

[Plynkes]

Okay then, as Happy Wanderer doesn't mind and feels the discussion had already run its course then carry on if you choose.    But please try and keep it civil, this kind of discussion has a tendency to get out of hand quite quickly, and degenerate into insult-flinging.

I would however be interested in your views Plynkes.

Personally, I find the Force Publique and the Congo Free State abhorrent. The DOAG, the IBEAC and their successors, too, while I'm about it. In my eyes they are clearly historical villains. But on the other hand I'm never so emotionally invested in my armies that I can't enjoy myself playing the villains in a game. I do not feel that I am endorsing the policies, outlook or world view of a faction simply because I play them in a war game. I am quite happy to play armies in a game who in real life given half a chance I would spit on and burn their flag. I'll gleefully roll my panzers across Europe while singing "Erika", but I leave that behind on the tabletop when we're done. 

I also think if you are going to play historical games, when you look into it, if you are only comfortable playing "good guys" then you are going to struggle to find any armies to play at all. There are not many unambiguously "good" guys in the world of history. It's usually villains vs. worse villains. Someone's got to play the "bad guys" or you aren't going to have a game. I can't in all honesty put the Force Publique beyond the pale, because it is really just a matter of degree. What about German East Africa? The reprisals for the Maji-Maji rebellion amounted to the deliberate starvation of tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of people. The British concentration camps have already been mentioned. And those plucky, heroic, freedom-loving Boers so beloved of many? Remember their Great Trek? The reason they wanted to leave British territory and set out on their own? Britain had just abolished slavery, and they couldn't bear to live in an Empire where they weren't allowed to treat Africans as property.

And it isn't as if the African powers were exactly paragons of goodness either. The Abyssinians in the 1890s would mutilate captured Italian askari by cutting off their hands and feet, not all that different to the behavior of the Belgians in the Congo. The Zulu kings were generally despots who reigned through terror and fear of violence. Not many "good guys" in Colonial Adventures, unfortunately. But all of the above are very interesting to me, and I enjoy discovering their history and researching their costumes, uniforms, equipment and tactics. But that doesn't mean I have to approve of any of them.

I think if this is problematic to people they are going to be tying themselves in knots and constantly second-guessing themselves over who they can and can't play in good conscience. For me the best plan is to either not play colonial (or even any) war games at all, or accept that history is complicated and not feel beholden to playing only those forces that you "approve" of. This isn't just an issue for colonial gaming, of course. Any historical gaming could be a problem if you feel this way. One option might be to stick to fantasy or Sci-Fi if it really is bothersome, as that is pretty much 'guilt-free' gaming. The other is to do what I do, which is to not feel so attached to them, not feel that you are in any way representing them and their beliefs, and they are not representing you.


(Sorry for rambling on so long, but you did ask.)

[Saucy Jack]

Hi Plynkes,

thank you for your long reply. Let me first say that I thought the discussion between italwars and I was pretty civil and respectful.

I can completely follow you in that you need to separate history from wargames and that the Colonial period is a without any real heroes but a lot of different degrees of villains. I know that once the minis are on the table I don't really think to much about who I am playing, I just want the game to be fun and the minis to look great. So at the end of the day I think that your approach is what will work the best for me.

[cdr]

You could of course put a Danish officer at the head of your Force Publique (they were there eg Olsen, Pedersen)

Carl

[Plynkes]

thank you for your long reply. Let me first say that I thought the discussion between italwars and I was pretty civil and respectful.

Oh yes, I agree. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Just wanted to make sure we kept things that way. I've seen discussions of this type get quite heated in the past.

[Saucy Jack]

You could of course put a Danish officer at the head of your Force Publique (they were there eg Olsen, Pedersen)

Carl

Ohh yes the Danes were no better than other nationalities - though we were among the first nations in the world to abolish slavery.

Even further back in history vikings were not the most pleasant chaps either.

[italwars]

Ohh yes the Danes were no better than other nationalities - though we were among the first nations in the world to abolish slavery.

Even further back in history vikings were not the most pleasant chaps either.

SK thanks for your words...you don't have to worry about Danish presence in FP...we too also had our share of Conrad DA in Belgian Congo...quite a few Italian officers were also present...strongly encouraged by the Italian goverment to serve the Etat Libre..at one point practically all of them left the FP because the supposed atrocities that they have to see...in fact the reasons where far less nobles..as i discovered in some papers..they were enraged by the fact that, once returned to Italy, our Government would'nt have recogniced as promised before leaving the year of services with the Etat Libre...one of them, i'm embarassed to say, behave like a real Italian . . .leaving alone his askaris and cowardly escaping in the bush at the first clash with tribesmen erupting from cover..but another, i suppose the only Italian casulaty, was find at dawn after a night raid carried by Dervishes in the Reajaf camp..dead with revolver and sword still in hand but with about 18 spear and sword wounds ..surrounded by a number of ansar deads...at leat he save partially our honour  
I know the activities of Dennmark in the field of anti-slavery and humanitarian behavour towards Africa...In 1935 a number of Danish officers/advisors were sent to the Court of the Negus hail Selassié to train and support his modernised but unexperienced and ill equipped Army to face the ready to invade Italian Armies..some journalist/technicians made long and interesting reportages and films..and, probably for that topic, there is in Copenhagen the most comprehensive and unpublished ammount of written and visual sources for this war....years ago , during one of my researches at the Military History Branch Archive of our Military HQ in Rome..i ask to meet the Director..a fat like a pig Neapolitan speaking, demotivated , lazy, caricatural Italian Colonnel unwillingly posted to lead this Office and waiting only lunch time to stuff himself with pizza..well..i proposed him to be sent in Copenhagen to research on this topic..of course this danish connection was totally unknown to every Italian researcher...the fat Colonnel just laugh at me...but, two years after, the first edition of the Official History book on the Italian invasion of Ethiopia came to light..profusly sponsored by the same Military Branch...written by a writer "friend of somebody " with no mention at all in his poor bibliography of any source which was'nt Italian