Flat terrain!

[Golgotha]

Flat terrain requires flat miniatures. I think they are called counters and that makes a board game. Which is evidently a rather different beast from miniature gaming, but some people seem to mix the two up 

[Redmao]

A nice table with 3D terrain looks better indeed, but as I don't have a dedicated gaming table, I have to set it up every time I want to play.
Sometimes, I just want to play (or only have time for) a quick game, so I'll set up some gaming tiles instead which takes two minutes and I'm ready to go.

[nic-e]

I've seen a very rapid spike in the number of  warmahordes players coming into the shop and plonking flat terrain down onto the table, and i have a theory as to why.

You have a list and that list has a playstyle. The problem is that the table, like a real landscape, is beyond your control when you head into a gaming store/club. You might have forests and then your units will get bogged down, or you wont be able to flank like you want too? SO you pack in some flat terrain and throw it onto the table,that way you know exactly what will be on the table and don;t need to worry about adapting to the landscape you're playing in.
(and it's bloody annoying as i take great pride in setting up nice looking ,fun tables for our players every morning, only to have the scenery swept aside for a small slip of neoprene.)

Also, seeing an unpainted army deploying from a black fabric zone template over a plain white table full of flat terrain is deeply deeply upsetting to me.

[Malebolgia]

Sorry nic-e...but that's not it (for most players). Warmamachine & Hordes are played competitively and a lot and flat terrain originates from this scene. Forests, hills, walls, even houses...they can be a bit vague in terms of rules in a game that is about precision and clarity. I've seen many, many discussions during games about scenery. Does a model get cover? Is it in the forest or on the hill? Etc. etc. The Warmachine & Hordes community has become more and more precise and demanding and thus they began using flat scenery. With clearly defined pieces (without a lot of variation, that makes things vague again). Much clearer and no discussions.

Now for tournaments that would be perfectly fine for me as tournaments are a totally different experience. That's about competition and testing yourself to the limits. I understand that many people loathe this but there are also a lot of people who love this gameplay (me included). If you are playing a timed game and you know that time is short, you don't want to fuss around about scenery. You want clarity and speed.
I can even understand the use of flat scenery at home or in your local shop if you are preparing for a tournament (practice games).

But using flat scenery in a relaxed game that is about fun and the social experience...now that I cannot understand.

[Sangennaru]

Also, seeing an unpainted army deploying from a black fabric zone template over a plain white table full of flat terrain is deeply deeply upsetting to me.

I'm going to turn this on the opposite direction, though: Seeing an army playing on a green canvas, with unpainted scenery mixed with laser-cut stuff and some dollar-store toys... that upsets me as well.
Ideally, you should have an armonious table, with scenery possibly sharing the same sculpting and painting style, all fully assembled. But since most of the people can't, with good quality flat terrain you can have at least something looking---complete.
I think that one of the best parts of the hobby is that people do things with the most various approaches. This approach has its pros and cons, but it's certainly not despicable.

That said, i'm a professional scenery sculptor, so i'm the first one thinking that a good table is worth at least as some good painted armies, probably much more...

Cheers
Jack

[AndrewBeasley]

Went very minimalist at one stage

'Funky Foam' terrain - around 2mm thick:



Printed and mounted onto 5mm foam core:




Then again I did play a fair number of board games (such as Ogre) with counters rather than figures.

[Gracchus Armisurplus]

I thought this kind of thing was a joke and then I saw a bunch of Warmachine players and found that in many cases they prefer flat terrain because of the precision it offers their measurements.  If a game is so competitive and precise that it works better with 2d terrain I say "no thanks".

I play a lot of X Wing and Armada and have recently bought the Imperial Assault core set. I am constantly baffled by people who insist that the flat terrain is better because it makes the game easier.

Sure, it does, but it also ENTIRELY defeats the purpose of a miniatures game. Just play on a board with some cardboard tokens and call it a day already.

(and it's bloody annoying as i take great pride in setting up nice looking ,fun tables for our players every morning, only to have the scenery swept aside for a small slip of neoprene.)

I'd be implementing a "don't move the terrain" rule.

[jon_1066]

I play a lot of X Wing and Armada and have recently bought the Imperial Assault core set. I am constantly baffled by people who insist that the flat terrain is better because it makes the game easier.

Sure, it does, but it also ENTIRELY defeats the purpose of a miniatures game. Just play on a board with some cardboard tokens and call it a day already.
...

So Space Hulk should have had flat counters?  The guy above you should just use flat counters?  In fact any graphical representation of a playing piece should be a chit in all board games?  The final assault on McDeaths castle should only be done on a mocked up 3D version rather than using the paper maps (even though most of the interior would be inaccessible?).  Lets get rid of the playing pieces from Monopoly - they should just be chits!  It's the boot for you old boot.

Flat terrain has it's place.  Even with some 3D representation many people base up their woods to give a defined area to them.  Underground tunnels, complex interiors and the like all lend themselves to flat terrain.  Not everyone can afford the time or cost to make up one shot interiors for a scenario they may only play once.

[eilif]

Thinking about this some more, I realize that my prejudice against flat terrain pretty much ends when one begins to game in interiors.  Building detailed interiors is so time consuming and takes so much space that interiors seem better suited to a nicely printed tile.  Plus, it actually takes up considerably less space.  As seen in Andrewbeasley's picture a 1 inch printed grid works fine, even with 1-block wide hallways.  If you built it in 3-d terrain your grid might have to be 35mm or bigger to accommodate figures with protruding guns, larger bases, etc..

Warmamachine & Hordes are played competitively and a lot and flat terrain originates from this scene. Forests, hills, walls, even houses...they can be a bit vague in terms of rules in a game that is about precision and clarity. I've seen many, many discussions during games about scenery. Does a model get cover? Is it in the forest or on the hill? Etc. etc. The Warmachine & Hordes community has become more and more precise and demanding and thus they began using flat scenery. With clearly defined pieces (without a lot of variation, that makes things vague again). Much clearer and no discussions....

...But using flat scenery in a relaxed game that is about fun and the social experience...now that I cannot understand.

That's roughly what I've been told and observed as well.  Warmachine is a game that in both the rulebook and the community at large explicitly rewards high levels of competitiveness, listbuilding/synergy and extreme precision.  In that setting, flat terrain is easier to work with, though I still feel it really hampers the look of the game.

As for your last observation, I wonder if flat scenery might actually makes the "social" experience easier.  If we assume that WM players come expecting a tight, defined game, then anything that facilitates that may actually be a benefit for that particular group of gamers.

If that is the case, then it's a gaming scene I want nothing to do with, but it might work very well for some folks.

[Elbows]

When I saw the "all felt madness" of a Warmachine tournament I came on here a few years ago asking about it.  People responded "it's done that way because of the strictness of the rules, etc.".  My response is the same now as then --- then that's a game I have zero interest in playing.  If your miniature wargame is such that it is confounded by 3d terrain or the level of competition is so high that millimeters count in every instance, it's not at all a game I have any interest in trying.

(To be fair, I tried Warmachine when it came out back in...2002-ish? ---- played halfway through a turn, quit and sold my stuff on ebay).

Snobby or not, playing a 3d wargame on flat felt?  I'd find something more enjoyable to do with my time.

[Hupp n at em]

When I saw the "all felt madness" of a Warmachine tournament I came on here a few years ago asking about it.  People responded "it's done that way because of the strictness of the rules, etc.".  My response is the same now as then --- then that's a game I have zero interest in playing.  If your miniature wargame is such that it is confounded by 3d terrain or the level of competition is so high that millimeters count in every instance, it's not at all a game I have any interest in trying.

I agree, but I am strangely enough just getting into Warmachine.  My girlfriend and her family are pretty fiercely competitive (I am not), and it seemed like a fairly "airtight" set of rules as far as miniatures games go.  I personally enjoy the more abstracted beer and pretzels style games (the most recent rulesets I've been reading about/bought are Iron Cross, Chain of Command, and To The Strongest!, etc...) and have always been more about the aesthetics and social experience of tabletop gaming.  But I think Warmachine can scratch a different itch, though I will just be playing at home among friends, and certainly not on all flat terrain.

[Sangennaru]

Snobby or not, playing a 3d wargame on flat felt?  I'd find something more enjoyable to do with my time.

I'm most definitely snob, and a fully assembled table is certainly more enjoyable. But if the alternative is a half-unpainted-partly-lasercut table, i'd rather go with flat terrain. At least it's fully painted and coherent! ^_^

[Elbows]

Pfftt...so paint your Lascut terrain! (or better yet..let them paint it for you!)



 

[Vermis]

If your miniature wargame is such that it is confounded by 3d terrain or the level of competition is so high that millimeters count in every instance, it's not at all a game I have any interest in trying.

Ay-men.

Pfftt...so paint your Lascut terrain! (or better yet..let them paint it for you!)

*pic*

Ooh.

[eilif]

I'm most definitely snob, and a fully assembled table is certainly more enjoyable. But if the alternative is a half-unpainted-partly-lasercut table, i'd rather go with flat terrain. At least it's fully painted and coherent! ^_^

I'd be curious to know if your beef with lasercut is folks not painting it properly or just the material itself. 

I'm not a fan of the jigsaw look of Lasercut joins, but it's nothing that a touch of putty and some paint can't solve.