Panzer IV Mit 50mm gun + camouflage questions?

[JamesValentine]

Hello all.

I'm wanting to ask your opinion as gamers how you would feel someone taking a Panzer IV in bolt action with a 50mm main gun and using it as a Panzer III (which has the same armour and secondary weapons). I want to do this as a "what-if" 1945 surviving tank with Volksgrenadiers, where the 75mm has been hastily replaced on a beaten up IV.

My second question is more from a painting view. Has anyone got any pics/plates of strange camouflage schemes that may of been used by the Germans.

Thank you.

[von Lucky]

I think most people won't have an issue if it's made clear pre-game what it is. If anything you're at a slight disadvantage as it's got a bigger footprint so it'll be harder to hide, etc.

Paint scheme-wise, if it's a repair job (as the background), I'd go with a single colour (green), like these ones:
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22Panzer+IV%22+camo+1945&biw=1920&bih=947&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPq-3jl7_SAhUnslQKHX_OCzIQ_AUIBigB

And have the gun in really worn early war grey (i.e. lots of chipping, etc) and rust? Not sure.

"Weird" camo was mostly applied to Panthers and Tigers imho. But I stand to be corrected.

[von Lucky]

Actually - it's your tank, paint it however you want - no one will be able to prove it didn't exist. Even Germans had trouble keeping precise records at this stage of the war.

[Ballardian]

I agree with Von Lucky, by the war's end a wide array of schemes were in circulation, so whatever you use (as long as it has a Dunklegelb, Olivegrun/Resedegrun or Rotbraun base) you'll be ok (recovered/reconditioned vehicles & those taken from tank schools often had unusual schemes).
 I've found the AK Interactive book, '1945 German Colours Camoflage Profiles Guide' to be a useful source & if you're planning a few vehicles it'd be worth picking up (it's only about £20 & covers everything from conscripted tank school PzIIIs to Tiger IIs plus halftracks, armoured cars & flak vehicles).
 As to 'weird' schemes, well the aforementioned book does depict a PzIV H with its Schurzen in the angular (sometimes called 'Christmas Tree') pattern, though the rest of the tank is in a more standard scheme.
 There's a YouTube channel for Carsten The Tighthead Prop that has a couple of interesting late schemes, on a Panther F & a PzIV Kugelblitz that you might like; youtube.com/channel/UCsT2xklsU6SYvdL6ClNYRUQ

 Hope that's of some use!

[JamesValentine]

Please if your going to post pictures of the Kugelblitz can you mark it clearly as not safe for work...that babe is pornographic...

and I was going to do the gun in Red primer to show its perhaps been in storage and slapped on or in to the turret as a quick replacement by a worn out battered poor girl.

and thanks for the pics and book info. I'll keep a look out for it and similar.

[Ballardian]

Glad to be of help Unpainted gun barrels would be in a baked on, heat resistant grey primer (a dark grey somewhere between Vallejo model colour 70.994 Dark Grey & 70.995 German Grey).

[MartinR]

I can't help thinking it would be hard to hastily fit a 50mm gun into a Pz IV turret, as it wasn't designed to take it. Why not just use a short barrelled  Pz IV, or a Pz III?

[JamesValentine]

I have a bit of a fetish for the 50mm hehe

[Neonwraith]

I can't help thinking it would be hard to hastily fit a 50mm gun into a Pz IV turret, as it wasn't designed to take it. Why not just use a short barrelled  Pz IV, or a Pz III?

In response to the difficulty of penetrating the armor of British infantry tanks (Matilda and Matilda II) during the Battle of France, the Germans had tested a 50 mm (1.97 in) gun—based on the 5 cm Pak 38 anti-tank gun—on a Panzer IV Ausf. D. However, with the rapid German victory in France, the original order of 80 tanks was canceled before they entered production.

[Captain Darling]

I look forward to seeing your retro fitted Pz IV nice idea. Your gaming you do what you want!

This is a task a field workshop would have to put a major effort into doing...a replacement vehicle would probably arrive before they finished fabricating what would be required ...

This picture is often said to be a Tiger II with a L70 75mm gun retro fitted 'at the front'...actually just the gun on full recoil after firing with the recoil fluid drained...often done when crew are abandoning their vehicle to stop the enemy using it effectively...



Cheers!

[dadlamassu]

Just an example of a field lashup


And,of course, the real project to give old models with 7.5cm L/24 a 5cm L/60


This might even be the one referred to though it might be an early Ausf F2 with 7.5cm L/43 without muzzlebrake

[Captain Darling]

Yeah top picture is what I'd expect a field workshop to do thanks for posting, replace a turret with a gun...

Engineering mantlet and gun mount parts to fit a different breech and barrel, then of course fitting optics to go with it in the field is a lot of work...can be done but is it time efficient?

[JamesValentine]

damn the efficiency I say. I wanted it so it is done 

[Wyrmalla]

Aye, it'd probably be easier to turn the thing into a recovery vehicle, then have it go out and recover a proper tank.