Armies of Arcana / Other options opinions?

[ShortscaleDave]

Sorry, a bit of a naff "tell me stuff" thread.  Looking to start some fantasy armies and game them and prefer not to be tied to any specific fluff or miniatures, so adaptable rules are welcomed.

Reading around on t'web I've seen a small but highly positive range of opinions on Armies of Arcana and that currently seems a good option.  Any views on AoA or viable alternatives? If so why is the alternative better than AoA?

[Vermis]

Sorry, a bit of a naff "tell me stuff" thread.  Looking to start some fantasy armies and game them and prefer not to be tied to any specific fluff or miniatures, so adaptable rules are welcomed.

Reading around on t'web I've seen a small but highly positive range of opinions on Armies of Arcana and that currently seems a good option.  Any views on AoA or viable alternatives? If so why is the alternative better than AoA?

Gonna be honest, I haven't delved into the AoA rules, so I'll leave that for someone else to lionize, but I have looked at that among other no-fluff, use-what-you-like fantasy battle rulesets. (I think I'll be mentioning them often these days, somehow) Two of my top suggestions would be Mayhem and Legions of Battle. Both have unit creation rules for fielding what minis you like with whatever stats you feel are appropriate, and both pretty tactical, thinky, big-picture games without getting bogged down in chrome.
Mayhem is a bit like Hordes of the Things with a fair bit more depth, a wee bit like Warmaster with it's orders and things, but also with an interesting action point mechanic and a very interesting polydice-stat mechanic. (Both HoTT and Warmaster should still be downloadable for free to take a look at, though HoTT has a new print run available at Black Hat. And both are viable options too.) Units are based on squares, 60mm suggested for 28mm (smaller squares for smaller scales), though 80mm is preferred by some.
Legions of Battle feels a bit like a cross between Warhammer and Hail Caesar, skewing more towards HC. (Which is no bad thing IMO, and which is very like it's grandparent Warmaster too) Units based on 4 or 6 squares - 4 infantry per 40mm or 50mm square, basically four Warhammer infantry figures bunched together.

Kings of War is a solid ruleset, free to download or in shiny dead-tree format, streamlined and maneuvery, but to be honest I'm too fond of me order mechanics. The only wee, nitpicky thing that puts me off is that the only role heroes and characters have in an epic-sized army is to run around like berzerkers on their own. YMMV. No unit creation rules, but plenty of proxy, counts-as and ally potential to make up for it. Not to mention all the Warhammer-army-compatible lists coming out due to recent events in Nottingham. As you might've noticed, 2nd ed is out soon.

God of Battles looks like a good set, with tactical interplay between formed, close-order units and 'skirmishing' open-order units. Also a bit limited in number of factions but also with a lot of choice and possibilities within and between factions. Biggest problem IMO is the huge chunky book filled with Kev Dallimore photos. Again, YMMV.

I've just (finally) got me copy of Lion Rampant and I'm fairly pleased with it, already using it to plan forces for the upcoming Dragon Rampant fantasy version. Generic unit/army archetypes to slot what you like in. Looks to be (and confirmed as) a quick-playing, streamlined set. A bit smaller in scope than most fantasy battle sets, dealing with retinues rather than huge armies; similar to God of Battles in that regard. Perfectly fine. Personally I'm starting to think 28mm games shouldn't go much bigger anyway. But I digress.

[ZeroTwentythree]

I haven't tried AoA, but I will second Vermis' recommendation to take a look at Legions of Battle. It has a nice balance of familiar mechanics and speed of play, but still has enough of a tactical feel to it.

I'm also looking into using fantasy adaptations of Hail Caesar. I liked Warmaster, and think that the evolution of those rules through Warmaster Ancients, and eventually Hail Caesar have really fine tuned the system. I've used it for historicals, and think it will work great for fantasy. There are a couple of fantasy adaptationso already around, one was just posted to this forum a day or two ago. Same as Legions, I think it has a good balance of tactical elements without getting bogged down in too many details.

[Brandubh]

I've been playing AoA for years now in both 15mm and GW scale (whatever that may be...)
Here's a review for you.

A Review of: Armies of Arcana (5th Edition) made by Terrain Warehouse

General Info:
118 Pages, Color, including 17 armies, 4 pages of Monsters, Reference sheets and Templates.
Dice Conventions: d6 (and multiples thereof)

There are 6 phases to a game turn: 1) Fleeing Phase, 2) Movement Phase, 3) Magic Phase, 4) Missile Phase, 6) Morale Phase.

The game is "I go you go", but both players will complete movement before spell casting or combat is resolved. Melee and Missile Fire are considered simultaneous for both armies. Magic is not however, with the player who moved first having the option to cast first or last. This can be important as each spellcaster in the game can only cast once each turn.

The individual Phases are broken down and the information given is clear and concise. The only downside at all that I can see is in some of the illustrations and that is because it's a bit difficult for old eyes to see exactly which way the ‘models' are supposed to be facing. The illustrations in the Melee section are much larger than the ones in the Movement section and are nice.

The Good:
Game Scale: This game is scale independent. 15mm minis? No problem. 25-28mm? No problem. The only thing you're going to want is your army based similarly.

Official Minis: None. You want to play with 15mm Demonworld minis? Go for it. 28mm armies from a certain British company? No problem.

Fluff: Kept to an absolute minimum (3 pages). It doesn't need the fluff, it shines as a rules set.

Artwork/Pictures/Illustrations:
Artwork: Some good, Some "ehhh", Some… see below.
Pictures: The pictures for the most part are very nice.
The illustrations for Movement, Combat, etc, are very nice and correspond directly to what you are reading.

Layout: Good. Props for setting the book up in the order that the turn goes by with each section having all the relevant information in it. The "Building an Army" section not only has the base rules for how your army is set up points wise, it also has creation rules for all the types of profiles used in the game (Creatures, Vehicles, War Machines) .

Game basics: Covers game requirements, terms used and gives very good info on the stats used by the models and what all the different abilities are. It's really nice to see these in one area instead of spread throughout a book.

Magic: The magic rules are straight forward and most importantly, magic is useful without being overpowering. Usually it's a better thing to use magic to buff your own troops rather than trying to blast your enemy's troops. Not always, but usually. That said, 7 of the 8 spell lists do have unit affecting spells, but your opponent can counter spell if he has the power. Some spells are Persistent and will stay in place to buff your troops, hurt your enemy, etc until dispelled (or enemy is dead…)

Movement: Handled very well with the added benefit of being able to use troops in Rank and File or Skirmish formations, where both of these have their advantages and disadvantages. It is possible to Overrun your opponents as you move, so a lone Ogre trying to stop 9 Cavalry is going to get Overrun. The aforementioned Ogre would get his two attacks… if he survived the four attacks by the cavalry that have lances so they get First Strike….

On Melee and Missile fire: The conventions are easy, with no charts: if melee stat is: 1/3 = 1 attack at skill level 3. Roll 1d6 get a 3 or less, you hit. There can be modifications to this, such as your enemy having Evasion (1) which reduces your skill level by one (so your attack would be 1 / 2). Your opponent rolls a save based on armor, modified by the strength of the hit (if any). "Fixed" saves are only reduced by magic weapons and artillery and represent magical or otherwise special armor.

Missile Fire: Can be deadly in this game with some weapons (like a longbow) reaching out some 27". The front 2 ranks of a unit may fire. There are tactics, spells, and some troops that can effectively counter missile heavy forces. (Skeletons and Zombies are arrow-immune to anything other than magical and artillery weapons) There's also spells that can make your normal missile attacks magical. It all evens out.

Melee: Resolved fairly quickly with both forces usually striking simultaneously (exceptions being models with First strike and Last Strike abilities).You do not get a bonus for Charging as both sides are considered to be either moving into combat or bracing for combat. Certain models may make Ramming attacks as well as some others (notably Giants) may make Sweep attacks and strike multiple opponents.

Morale: fairly simple and straight forward, with a 2d6 test made to determine if a unit (or model) breaks or not. There are bonuses and penalties given depending on the number of troops you have versus the number of enemies you are facing. Fearless troops may fail without breaking, but they will suffer extra wounds in order to do so. (Strangely enough, there are no rules in place for Banners, so we have instituted a house rule that a Banner gives a +1 Morale Bonus to a unit provided it's at the front of the unit)

Armies: I did mention earlier that there are 17 different army lists in the book right? There are 22 lists in total available if you go to the Armies of Arcana website. It is obvious that the majority of these lists are direct imports from earlier editions of the game, but this is a good thing. For some reason the "Hogman" army list is only shown in the book and nowhere on the AoA site. Huh.

Creating new Creatures: The formula is there in the book. You're running a Ratmen army and you want the stats for a ½ Rat / ½ Ogre? You can stat it up. The rulebook has 4 examples of creation. There is also an Excel spreadsheet that makes miniature stat creation very easy.
PS: if you really do want the stats for the rat/ogre let me know… I've already done that one. And some long-barreled riflerats, and a firethrower team, and… well, you get the idea.


The Not So Good:
English 101: Not too bad. A few instances of things worded weird and a couple of missing words but for the most part it passes the proof read (for grammar anyways).

Artwork/Pictures: Some of the artwork is of the "What were you smoking?" realm of fantasy artwork. I'm talking reminiscent of bad 80's clip art. No, I'm not joking. The pictures for the most part are very nice. A couple of pictures have obviously been photo shopped to be artsy-fartsy and honestly would have been nicer as an in-focus real picture. Pictures, are a good thing, really they are. It would have been nice though if there were pictures in the example battle, that corresponded to the example battle.

Reference Sheets and Markers: if you want these out of the book, you'll be cutting your book. Go to their website, download them and print them off. You'll be thankful in the long run.


The "You've Got to be Kidding":
Okay, this is way past pet-peeve here. If you are making a set of game rules and you include examples and/or an example battle, I cannot stress the following enough: MAKE SURE YOU HAVE IT RIGHT! Seriously folks, making common mistakes concerning the abilities of the troops in your example make you look bad. Real bad. The writer and the proof-reader for the example battle should be ashamed.
That said, this is the only part of the book that stands out as a stinker. The mechanics of the game are shown correctly, it's the stats and abilities of the troops listed that are wrong.

Overall:
Barring the snafu that is the battle example, It's a pleasure to play and its fun. For the cost of one army book from some other games you can have a complete, very playable game.

[ShortscaleDave]

Wow thank you for the detailed replies guys!  REALLY good information in your posts, and very very helpful.

[Hobgoblin]

I've just (finally) got me copy of Lion Rampant and I'm fairly pleased with it, already using it to plan forces for the upcoming Dragon Rampant fantasy version. Generic unit/army archetypes to slot what you like in. Looks to be (and confirmed as) a quick-playing, streamlined set. A bit smaller in scope than most fantasy battle sets, dealing with retinues rather than huge armies; similar to God of Battles in that regard. Perfectly fine. Personally I'm starting to think 28mm games shouldn't go much bigger anyway. But I digress.

I'd second Vermis's recommendation here. Lion Rampant is an excellent game, with lots of tactical elements and great interactions between units and terrain features. It works well for fantasy battles as it stands (there are rudimentary army lists for fantasy sides at the back) and is easy to adapt further. The Dragon Rampant rules look like they'll add a great many more options.

One thing I really like about Lion Rampant is that its 12- or 6-strong units work well as warbands for SBH and the like. So you can paint up a themed warband for the skirmish game and then deploy it en bloc in Lion Rampant.

I'd also agree with Vermis that the 60 or so figures a side in Lion Rampant seems a natural sweet spot, visually, for 28mm. There's also nothing to stop you assuming that each figure represents however many men you want.

[Vermis]

Nice review, Brandubh!

Dave: like I say, I have a bit of patter worked out thanks to Warhammer shrinking to skirmish size.

I'd second Vermis's recommendation here. Lion Rampant is an excellent game, with lots of tactical elements and great interactions between units and terrain features. It works well for fantasy battles as it stands (there are rudimentary army lists for fantasy sides at the back) and is easy to adapt further. The Dragon Rampant rules look like they'll add a great many more options.

True, true. I also got the latest issue of W:SS not long after, which just happened to have Dan Mersey's suggestions for fantasy-ing LR up a bit more, ahead of DR. Helps a bit too!

One thing I really like about Lion Rampant is that its 12- or 6-strong units work well as warbands for SBH and the like. So you can paint up a themed warband for the skirmish game and then deploy it en bloc in Lion Rampant.

Good point. I somehow ended up with a bunch of random fantasy minis that'd make up 3-4 small-skirmish gangs, although they could be too random for LR's unit definitions. The nurgley collection, for instance, ranges from champions and ogres to nurglings and giant grubs...

I'd also agree with Vermis that the 60 or so figures a side in Lion Rampant seems a natural sweet spot, visually, for 28mm. There's also nothing to stop you assuming that each figure represents however many men you want.

Got to say I've still been wondering about basing some up to switch between LR and Mayhem, though. Switching the same minis between 'skirmish' and 'warband' and 'battle' scales might be a stretch.

[Hobgoblin]

Good point. I somehow ended up with a bunch of random fantasy minis that'd make up 3-4 small-skirmish gangs, although they could be too random for LR's unit definitions. The nurgley collection, for instance, ranges from champions and ogres to nurglings and giant grubs...

I think you could get a great-looking unit of, say, Fierce Foot that included ogres, giant grubs and everything in between. I think one of the joys of Lion/Dragon Rampant is that the unit doesn't need to match any particular specifications. As an example, I'm painting up some old Citadel great goblins/gnolls. I have one or two of the boar riders - not enough for a unit, but I'm planning to use them as mounted leaders of foot units.

[magokiron]

ARMIES OF ARCANA is a really GREAT set of rules.

It is all WHFB tried to be, but never could.

The only drawback is that the game no longer seems to have any support. Apparently, the original creator and owner sold the rights to a group of "shereholders" and then they got a bitter fight among themselves.

Anyhow, the game shines as is, and the review posted by Brandubh is pretty spot on.

I highly recommend the system.

Hope that helps.