Heroquest returns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elbows]

Okay, that's basically a better translation of the email I received (which auto-translated).  Still seems like a piss-poor result.  I will be genuinely amazed if anything is ever delivered here.

[beefcake]

I'm not holding my breath. If anything arrives I'll be surprised and happy. Updates keep happening on the Heroquestclassic site but I'd actually like to see what all the minis look like... and how do some people seem to be getting copies of the minis to paint up. They are obviously not professional painters, they look more like my standard of painting, which isn't great. Did I miss out on something there or was it just not publicised?

[Elbows]

They always hand out miniatures to random friends of theirs to paint...showing off stuff instead of actually delivering ANY information to backers or the people putting up all the money.  There have been videos of random minis from the game since about the beginning - when they were notably absent and didn't update the website but maybe once every six months.

It's not a good sign when the lead of the project seems delusional to the Lanzanos folks.  While the occasional factory photo has leaked out, the game is still maybe 2+ years now behind schedule with absolutely zero information on a possible release date.  The website is now releasing weekly videos which are weak sauce YouTube videos explaining the game mechanics.

I will be thoroughly amazed if I receive a large box with all of the contents promised/planned on the Kickstarter.  The absurd shipping I already paid for will likely NOT be refunded with in-store credit like was originally promised.  I'd love to be proven wrong, but Gamezone (despite being a pretty respectable manufacturer prior to the Kickstarter) will never be getting another cent from me in the future.  I've lucked out on most of my Kickstarters - this and the continuation of Robotech have been the two worst ones.

[ced1106]

I"m going to disagree with the "respectable" part. GZ was pretty much only Dionysius. His in-house sculptor left. The distributor (and accused recaster) e-Mini's supposedly backed him up. GZ itself was known for casting "grey IP" Games Workshop models. Basically, similar designs, better sculpts, lower prices. That in itself isn't bad, but the mini's were meant to be used in Warhammer Fantasy games, even using similar names. No wonder Games Workshop killed off its Warhammer Fantasy line, of the generic fantasy Olde World, replacing it with the more IP-protectable Age of Sigmar factions.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jul/17/warhammer-beginners-guide-games-workshop-age-of-sigmar
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/06/age-of-sigmar-so-whats-in-a-name.html

[Elbows]

Suffice to say Gamezone didn't have (that I could find) any history of taking money and cheating people. 

[ced1106]

I don't think they did, unless you mean taking away sales from GW. For me, that's a yellow flag, since it shows a company that disregards the IP of another company.

Anyway, Chris just posted this on BGG:

BREAKING NEWS. A lawsuit has been given to the courts from a HQ25 backer along with someone from the Darkstone forum lothario for the 18th of July! The judge has agreed on "update with the state of the project, production schedule of remaining pieces and delivery date which should be prior to 2017".

(Señores, noticias frescas del compañero Lotario del foro Darkstone. Han admitido a trámite la demanda que presentó señalando vista para el 18 de julio! Y han acordado medidas cautelares, literalmente por Lotario: "actualizar la web con el estado del proyecto, calendario de producción de piezas restantes y fecha de entrega que debe ser anterior a 2017".)

[beefcake]

I don't think they did, unless you mean taking away sales from GW. For me, that's a yellow flag, since it shows a company that disregards the IP of another company.

TBH How many companies fall into this category? Lots, and many of them reputable. Heresy miniatures have some things very similar to plague bearers, and including some of their spare heads range they could be clones. Hasslefree have their grymn which fill the squat void (very different aesthetic though I would say so that is a bit of a stretch). I should go on but there is chaos in the kitchen at the moment so must stop typing (or else feel the wrath of my wife). Kromlech are another one along with Chapter House.

Not really sure what good a lawsuit will do to be honest. If the money is gone we have hope of getting it back. If it is still there then it will just be eaten away by legal fees. I guess it would stop them doing the same thing again if they have frittered the cash away.

[ced1106]

TBH How many companies fall into this category? Lots, and many of them reputable. Heresy miniatures have some things very similar to plague bearers, and including some of their spare heads range they could be clones. Hasslefree have their grymn which fill the squat void (very different aesthetic though I would say so that is a bit of a stretch). I should go on but there is chaos in the kitchen at the moment so must stop typing (or else feel the wrath of my wife). Kromlech are another one along with Chapter House.

Reputable? Call me a boardgamer, but making money off of someone else's IP isn't reputable.

[Elbows]

That accounts for maybe 70% of the entire gaming industry, if we consider LOTR or Warhammer Fantasy or D&D as "owning" the ideas of general fantasy etc.  There are loads upon loads of companies making alternate models for major game systems. 

[Yuber Okami]

GW took almost all their ideas from other people who were there long before they existed. The main difference is that they registered them as IP.

[ced1106]

GW took almost all their ideas from other people who were there long before they existed. The main difference is that they registered them as IP.

Yeah, that's what you should do. In fact, because GW cannot defend its Warhammer IP against companies making money off of them, they've canned their entire Warhammer Olde World line.

[ced1106]

That accounts for maybe 70% of the entire gaming industry, if we consider LOTR or Warhammer Fantasy or D&D as "owning" the ideas of general fantasy etc.  There are loads upon loads of companies making alternate models for major game systems.  

70%? Ridiculous. It certainly doesn't count for 70% of the boardgame industry, where creators have their own ideas. I'm not talking *your* definition of "own". I'm talking IP here. You can make a game with "elves" because it's an idea and laws don't protect ideas. You cannot make a game with Eldar because it's someone else's IP. The difficult part of IP enforcement is distinguishing ideas vs. IP. But GZ, as I understand it, made not just similar models, but used similar names for their models. I'm sure GW's lawyers told GW that GW's implementation of generic fantasy was *not* well-protected by IP laws, so GW did the only prudent thing and destroyed their universe utterly, replacing it with the Age of Sigmar universe, whose names had stronger IP protection. Yeah, I'm sure everyone who bought GW-compatible miniatures was happy about that.

EDIT: Moreover if, say, Heresy or Chapterhouse ran a crowdfunding project of their own IP, would you back it? Then how about if they were to run a crowdfunding project that was connected to a company whose IP they did not have written permission but said they had permission to run? Why? What is the difference between the two situations?

More from Chris:

'First:
The judge has set the date to go to declare on July 18th.
He orders to game zone to update the web with the real status of the project, explain the pieces wich aren't done by now and to set a date of the game release, it must be sent to us before 2017.

Second:
A judge has declared admissible the reclamation from a customer and has ordered some cautionary actions (not sure about the translation, are actions that the person accused has to fulfill just in case the accuser finally win). The cautionary actions (that are mandatory) are: update the website with project status, production calendar of the figurines and a final delivery date that should be before 2017 (this year).'

[Elbows]

I guess I find it funny that you think there are almost any genuine IPs left in this world to worry about this so much. 

[ced1106]

I guess I find it funny that you think there are almost any genuine IPs left in this world to worry about this so much. 

No funnier than what GZ backers are going through!

[Elbows]

Hey, we all made our bed...and we shall be sleeping in it.  I've been fortunate on most of my Kickstarters.  It's a risk I agreed to when I paid in.