A question for Mordheim enthusiasts: the pit fighter's attacks

[Hobgoblin]

I've got an old chaos marauder who is perfect for the pit-fighter hired sword (spiked gauntlet and a weird weapon that, while not quite a 'morning star', looks suitably unbalanced). I see that there's a bit of discussion on the pit fighter's gear and how it works.

I don't think the intent of the rules is that the pit fighter has to choose between using his morning star and his buckler/sword gauntlet. It's plain from the "and no, your heroes cannot learn to use it" that the gauntlet is a special weapon that gives unusual benefits to the pit fighter - so it's safe to assume that he uses both at once (otherwise any hero with a sword and a morning star would fight in exactly the same way).

But is the extra attack already in his profile, which has A 2? My hunch would be that it is, and that he doesn't get three attacks - that this is just an inconsistency in how the information is presented. I'd be interested to know if there's any consensus on this, though!

[Citizen Sade]

FWIW, we’ve always played the pit fighter hired sword with 2+1 attacks i.e. like anyone with an additional hand weapon.

RAW would have him unable to use both weapons simultaneously due to the morning star’s difficult to use rule but, as he’s a professional gladiator, we ignore that.

[Hobgoblin]

FWIW, we’ve always played the pit fighter hired sword with 2+1 attacks i.e. like anyone with an additional hand weapon.

Interesting. I suppose the obvious counter-example is Veskit, where the four attacks in his statline include those afforded by his weapons. But it is explicitly stated in that case.

RAW would have him unable to use both weapons simultaneously due to the morning star’s difficult to use rule but, as he’s a professional gladiator, we ignore that.

Yes - the spirit of the rule is plainly that the gauntlet does something special (otherwise it's just a sword), so the something special must be that the pit fighter can wield it along with his morning star.

[robh]

FWIW, we’ve always played the pit fighter hired sword with 2+1 attacks i.e. like anyone with an additional hand weapon.

RAW would have him unable to use both weapons simultaneously due to the morning star’s difficult to use rule but, as he’s a professional gladiator, we ignore that.

Agreed on the first part for RAW. The revised official Pit Fighter rules from Town Cryer 21 reduce the basic Pit Fighter's attack stat to 1 (as well as reducing S & T to 3).

On the 2nd bit, RAW indeed has the "difficult to use" rule but it is officially dropped along with the "heavy" penalty rule for Warband members in TC21. Which then brings the 2nd attack back into play.

How you play it depends on your own preference, RAW or updated/expanded.  Although in my experience the further into the expansion warbands you go the worse the game balance becomes.

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks, Rob - good points.

Just on this:

Agreed on the first part for RAW. The revised official Pit Fighter rules from Town Cryer 21 reduce the basic Pit Fighter's attack stat to 1 (as well as reducing S & T to 3).

Isn't that slightly different, in that the TC statline is for members of a pit-fighter warband rather than the 'hired sword' variety of pit fighter? It's not a revision of the hired sword, is it?

I'd see it as in line with the different sorts of Gor beastmen for the Cult of the Possessed (old-school two-wound bruisers) and the Beastman Raiders (the one-wound variety) - officially confirmed as different varieties.

How you play it depends on your own preference, RAW or updated/expanded.  Although in my experience the further into the expansion warbands you go the worse the game balance becomes.

I'll be playing the pit fighter (in an orc warband), so I'm more concerned with fairness/sportingness than anything else. I agree that RAW would be three attacks - but I've just got this sneaking suspicion that the extra attack for the gauntlet might have been added to the profile in the same way as it was for Veskit. It's not a situation like that of the ogre or black orc or whatever where there's a choice of weaponry. And three attacks does make the pit fighter very good value for 30 crowns.

But I may just.be succumbing to an anchoring bias: when I first read the profile, my initial thought was that the second attack represented the gauntlet.

[robh]

Isn't that slightly different, in that the TC statline is for members of a pit-fighter warband rather than the 'hired sword' variety of pit fighter? It's not a revision of the hired sword, is it?

No, it is for Pit Fighters in the warband.  The lower stats (and upped hire cost) are the penalty for the more interesting and varied options on weapons and abilities the new Pit Fighters have.  The Hired Sword was not amended in line with the new rules by any errata that I have in my collection, but I prefer the lower power version.

The Hired Sword Pit fighter has, apart from Ld,  the same stats as the 80 crown Pit King, so is an absolute bargain and can be added to a Pit Fighter warband as a Hired Sword for less than the cost of a low power version warband member.

[Hobgoblin]

No, it is for Pit Fighters in the warband.  The lower stats (and upped hire cost) are the penalty for the more interesting and varied options on weapons and abilities the new Pit Fighters have.  The Hired Sword was not amended in line with the new rules by any errata that I have in my collection, but I prefer the lower power version.

Right - yes - just wanted to check that we were on the same page.

The Hired Sword Pit fighter has, apart from Ld,  the same stats as the 80 crown Pit King, so is an absolute bargain and can be added to a Pit Fighter warband as a Hired Sword for less than the cost of a low power version warband member.

Yup - that's the line of thinking that had me assuming that the two attacks included the gauntlet (just as Veskit's doodahs are included in his statline). With just two attacks when dual wielding, the pit fighter is still a bargain, but you can see why he's costed thus against the ogre bodyguard (who has poorer WS but better A and - crucially - three wounds). But if the pit fighter gets three attacks, it's easy to envisage him taking out an ogre bodyguard (with two-handed weapon) before the ogre has had a chance to swing.