The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Queeg]

Yup, definitely can see where you're coming from and agree with some things.

A couple not so much, the pigeonholing/generation thing not at all. Been in this industry, gaming and gaming forums for a looooong time (as I 'm sure you have) and maybe it's the groups I lean to, but most people that are either gaming friends or I know through the scene and who are most vehemently against plastics are Napoleonic or Horse n Musket players (savage generalisation I know and I do apologise but locally that's definitely the case).  Most of the others who play a bit of everything seem less wedded to metal vrs plastics, the much cheaper price and improved quality finally winning most over. And most of the "population group" I'm talking about are our generation, which makes up about 75% of most players, clubs and modellers here in NZ.

As to GW losing business I'd have to say most of the people you're referring to have already left and so will have little impact. GW actually seem to be turning the corner (well peeking around it) and I'd say they'll pick up much more from the people who left to play Bolt Action and a tons of other game systems that filled the GW void who might return, if only to buy some minis. The specialist games forums certainly seem buzzed with Blood Bowl and potentially Necromundia returning in some form.

The good thing is there's plenty of minis around so each to his own !!!

cheers
Brent

[Timbor]

Agreed, Queeg summed up my feelings on the subject very well. I love the heft and feel of a metal miniature, but the products GW has put out in the last year or two have generally been spectacular in sculpting and execution. I am no fan of the sigmarines or the khorne stuff... but that is more preference than anything. Apart from disliking the style, I can't really find any technical fault in the figures themselves.

[Ulfhednar]

I've always been strongly drawn to horse & musket and Napoleonic too, though don't mind that in plastic if it's about large groups of figures and the colour, it links to a history that is real and the realness of that history takes over from the artificial modern plastic. So I had loads of Esci for fun gaming (because of the cost & ease & didn't mind), but I do prefer metal, if I'm doing history things seriously (or any fantasy / sci-fi at all because the subject doesn't have enough realness on it's own) and / or am bothered about individual characters they would have to be metal.

I don't mean to pigeon hole but it is a factor in the UK at least, and it's been weirdly in hand with other cultural evolution's (bouncing back & forth with America) so stuff knitted together to make significant things happen, altogether it created the market that WG exploited in order to explode in the 80's. Re GW have already lost those who'd care, these things cycle, apart from the culture thing I guess it's bound to be the case that a lot quit in late teens when real life demands take over, but will be heading back as those demands relax as they approach middle age+, GW are mad for removing themselves from their original market (quality lead miniatures that were works of art) and so from those returning people from the first generations and from their money. But maybe they see them and assume they can manipulate them back on GW's terms - like the Canoness is resin only (and in super excellent Oldhammer art style) to try and force people to buy resin, on the back of them just reissuing the SoB in metal, having pulled metal people back they're trying to convert first to resin by artificially limiting, then next to plastic with irresistibly pretty new plastic Seraphim (continue their spending and re-establish their habit but on WG plastic terms, classic converting). If so then there's a problem WG don't seem to get that most of my gen will, in plastic they're only toy models of irresistibly pretty Seraphim not the real thing, if I wanted pretty plastic models I'd be buying this kind of stuff instead:



They won't convert most of those returning 80's & early 90's people into GW's new plastic world, they'll convert GW out of those potential customers world permanently. And yes the best thing is the other lead miniature manufacturers, I'm well into some of those they are excellent, but they can't make me new Sisters of Battle lead figures and Citadel are my oldest friend in this (even if I've been away for years), it's sad to see them resigning themselves to a plastic loony bin :-) That's definitely the end of my contribution to this thread, I'm glad some people like the plastic, I just think considering what it was, 'Citadel' deserves to be much more, which is reasonable enough.

edit - btw to clarify, I realise Citadel metals may not have contained actual lead for a long time as there are alternate alloys, although for all I know they still do. The point is they're metal which is quality, makes them the real thing rather than just cheap models of themselves and hopefully they'll paint same as old ones did. I will never get why WG would think people would be content with plastic models of their figures rather than their actual figures, it's such a broken, cheap, and without value concept. And they really think people would buy resin, to collect / celebrate other peoples lead miniatures that they're not allowed. It really is ridiculous in the most literal sense, it is so false.

[Duncan McDane]

Well, what me got into the hobby - way back around 89/90 - were the massive amount of  figurines om display at a friends' house and later at a games shop. And the good thing was, whatever I saw on display looked the same - but  unpainted, of course - as what I saw in the blister packs/sacks/boxes on the walls and shelves. So after I got over the initial 3.99 pounds / 18 gulden-shellshock for 4 models on foot or 2 mounted ones I started buying and never looked back. It was only a bit later I started gaming on a regular base.
But, if today I would walk into a GW for the first time as the 18-year old lad I was back then, saw the models on display, asked the manager to see them and got a box of sprues - never mind the inflated pricing, I'd be used to that because of the current day price level of toys and games and apps etc. - I'd thank him in the nicest possible way and would walk out of the store never to return.
I see what you ( Queeg ) can do with plastic and I admire it greatly, but plastic model building is not my thing, I can do it, I did it but I don't really like it. As for resale value, I don't care. It's a hobby and hobbies cost money. Some people travel, go to bars or breed parrots, I collect a.o. toy soldiers.
But as said before, to each his own, plastic does have it's merits, I do have lots of 3rd edition Skeletons and 4th edition Goblins painted up and used them with great pleasure but - besides they were eiher single part figures or easily to assemble with great results - and I really enjoy lokking what skilled people can do with them but again, it's not for me.

[Malebolgia]

They can do beautiful things with plastic nowadays. Just take a look at Kingdom Death's plastic. Extremely high detail and IMO on par with the resins. Here is an example:

[N.C.S.E]

But, if today I would walk into a GW for the first time as the 18-year old lad I was back then, saw the models on display, asked the manager to see them and got a box of sprues - never mind the inflated pricing, I'd be used to that because of the current day price level of toys and games and apps etc. - I'd thank him in the nicest possible way and would walk out of the store never to return.

Well... these days toys and apps and games are incredibly cheap (compared to your models). With miniatures you need a ton of infrastructure (paints, glue, friends who either have kit already or are willing to learn (tall orders on both counts, particularly if your 18 year old self hasn't player)), as well as to understand that to get to the level of the works of art and awesome set ups we see online (and in GW stores, one of their great strengths) takes a lot of time and hard work.

By contrast, toys are generally set up in 5 minutes (if that) and the most expensive part of apps/computer games is the computer to play it on, which will generally available through parents/relatives (either as gifts or around the house), once that outlay is out of the way, computer games are often free (even quality ones) and you can begin playing once the download is finished (i.e. no longer than a few hours). And they provide instant gratification and loads of explosions.

Looked at like that, wargaming has some stiff competition.

On the other hand, no computer game can possibly compete with a beautifully done set up (like we see regularly on this forum). And the feel of working with physical things, as well as being free to make up your rules and scenarios without a degree in computer science (a big deal for a pretty computer illiterate guy like me) gives wargaming a few advantages despite everything.

[Elbows]

I think that once quality plastics started to appear (say what you will about art, or charm, or character, the quality is fantastic now days) it changed the expectation of the consumers as well.  With games like Warhammer 40K almost entirely plastic the expectation is that you can buy some kits and kit-bash until you pass out.  I'm on a bunch of Warhammer forums, despite not playing the current generation, and short of a few grognards like myself --- the response from their consumers is pretty overwhelmingly positive on the designs and model quality.  When a new kit comes out, it's not "oh that's nice", it's now "oh, I could make..." etc.

Once you set this kind of expectation (not to mention GW has become smarter and releases a lot of dual or triple kits --- allowing you build one of several units from a box or sprue) mono-pose anything will be looked down upon.  Even some of the fantastic press-kit pieces they produce are occasionally slammed for being just that...mono-pose.

I'll be honest, I don't think there is as large a market out there for metals from GW gamers as some folks have stated here.  A market?  Sure.  Enough to warrant running metals alongside plastics?  I doubt it.  Lots of people leave GW and don't return...lots return.  My gaming group numbers around 14 people, all of whom used to play WHFB or WH40K or other GW games - including a store manager and a couple of ex-employees of GW.  None of us play GW products at the moment.  Not a single one of us left because they went to plastic kits.  We left because GW become over-priced and they don't design very good games.

If 40-55 year olds don't find GW offerings attractive, I'm not surprised.  Simply put, you're not the target audience.  Is this a good business decision?  Who knows.  GW's had falling profits for several years now (not going bankrupt, but they're no longer in ascendancy).  We'll see how the next few years go.

If, like me, you like old models?  Buy them up on eBay.  There are plenty.  I've collected and built a comically large 6300+ points army of 2nd edition Eldar just this year.  All metal except vehicles.  No big deal.  I don't think GW owes me anything in metal, nor do I care that their rules became such crap that I left.  I collect and play what I like.  If they earn my business, good on them.

[TheMightyFlip]

Speaking of the new Canoness, mine was flawlessly resin cast, on par with resin miniatures I got from Hasslefree over the years.

[Ulfhednar]

Well... these days toys and apps and games are incredibly cheap (compared to your models). With miniatures you need a ton of infrastructure (paints, glue, friends who either have kit already or are willing to learn (tall orders on both counts, particularly if your 18 year old self hasn't player)), as well as to understand that to get to the level of the works of art and awesome set ups we see online (and in GW stores, one of their great strengths) takes a lot of time and hard work.

By contrast, toys are generally set up in 5 minutes (if that) and the most expensive part of apps/computer games is the computer to play it on, which will generally available through parents/relatives (either as gifts or around the house), once that outlay is out of the way, computer games are often free (even quality ones) and you can begin playing once the download is finished (i.e. no longer than a few hours). And they provide instant gratification and loads of explosions.

Looked at like that, wargaming has some stiff competition.

On the other hand, no computer game can possibly compete with a beautifully done set up (like we see regularly on this forum). And the feel of working with physical things, as well as being free to make up your rules and scenarios without a degree in computer science (a big deal for a pretty computer illiterate guy like me) gives wargaming a few advantages despite everything.

Re PC games, I came back to miniatures after spending many years gaming Total War & then WOT's MMO (where the average EU age is apparently 30+). It's completely empty of real satisfaction and genuine meaningful social interaction / contact, you exchange time and often a lot of money to end up with effectively nothing at all, it's empty and all cost. Games like that are full of people around my age looking for a hobby and slowly realising they're not finding it there, the amount of dissatisfaction on forums is pretty big as the games dumb themselves down for the masses and sell themselves out into pay-to-win, if their whales (big regular spenders) aren't leaving they're spending less or converting down to free to play, people like WG are quite desperately trying to find new cash cows before their existing ones die of being sold out & exhaustion, like WG have just gone into partnership with Total War over the development of their Rome MMO Arena (but in UK at least it's effectively the same market as WOT's and it's already exhausted with them). I think it's highly likely many like me will want something more real & will end up back in miniatures. It's refined, adult and a square deal you're in control of, PC gaming is time spent with a vampire. Can't comment on the younger ones. though it is obviously stiff competition for traditional gaming, but again ultimately the lack of anything real to show for what they've put in is bound to catch up with them. In fact it does - you could probably find it on you-tube, some young gamer made a film about PC gaming and how addictive, empty & destructive it is (was a WoWarcaft player), won some big award and is quite famous in those circles.

Re art, the pictures of all GW's beautiful (plastic) set ups, beautiful / attractive things are not necessarily art (a con people like Simon Cowell try and pull, referring to their entertainers as artists). Though that's not to say entertainers, or in this case decorators or maybe architects, aren't hugely talented / gifted, they clearly are, but it's a different thing to art, which is about truth, and working on something plastic so it doesn't look plastic isn't creating / finding truth. An honest lead miniature is a true thing, it has the gravity & realness to make representations of livings things (and communicate the truth of them) and make fantasy & sci-fi more true than plastic ever can, and resin isn't a gaming alternative.

Re plastics, it's just a completely different hobby (and not one that I or anyone I've ever known was ever interested in), it's model making, and plastic models are not miniatures anymore than serious plastic model kit 1/72 scale soldiers or for that matter Airfix kits in the 1970's were miniatures. It is the case if GW stop doing metal, they'll simply no longer be a miniature manufacturer and will have vacated the miniature market (they can pretend otherwise but it is an actively false pretence, in order to maintain perceived value and sales). That's the straight of it without any comment on whether they should or not, though to me it looks like heritage, credibility, and ultimately brand suicide, it's about much more than just how much they're selling right now or can expect to in the near to middle future.

Re old miniatures, I've got an eldar army too though not bought on ebay just abandoned for 25 years in a cupboard, with a untouched boxed set of Harlequins and a load of Scorpions (the things that looked like Predators) and stuff but it's just too much fantasy, always was. It was the very gothic and apparently more tongue in cheek SoB that really worked for me (they even had metal backpacks), but the boss is resin and the future is plastic, gothic is categorically not plastic, it's as bad as X-Factor so that's that. And resin swords warp, there's been a pro-painted resin Canoness for sale on ebay and you can see there's a slight bend in the sword, even for all that money.

[Elbows]

Is there an impact whether you wargame with models or miniatures?

I'll be honest, I have to disagree with the majority of your points/opinions - but that's the joy of communication, we're all entitled to what we believe.

[Keith]

I just spent 10 minutes browsing Putty and Paint. Easily some of the best miniature work ever seen, and a healthy split of plastic and metal. Then spent another 10 minutes on Iron Sleet ... certainly one of the more creative corners of the 40k world and almost exclusively plastic. Has to be really. It's craft that goes back to Paine and Horan (Historex etc.) crossed with madness of John Blanche. Perfect! Wrapped my little tour with a trip to David Soapers blog - earned one of the first Slayer Swords back in the day and still winning them in unseemly numbers after a break from the hobby. Dave's work is almost as close as this craft gets to art and he copes admirably with plastic.

Still love metal, happy to cut plastic. Actually don't draw a distinction but each to their own.

Be good to break this discussion out into a separate thread perhaps?

[von Lucky]

There is only one true art form:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting

Everything else is just pale imitation.

[stone-cold-lead]

Be good to break this discussion out into a separate thread perhaps?

An "it's not what it used to be 25+ years ago" thread? 

[Lovejoy]

I remember many years back working for GW when the 'do everything in plastic' decision came down, the central cause was worry over competition. Rackham, Privateer Press, and a whole host of smaller start-ups were offering lovely metal minis, and market share was eroding. Not much, but enough to be a worry for the future.

So the plan was to have customers only buying plastic kits, so they'd only be familiar with plastic kits, and would regard metal minis from other companies as something weird and difficult to use, so would stay faithful to GW. It would also put pressure on the other manufacturers to try and get into plastics, requiring massive investment that they would struggle to achieve. Of course, it ended up taking too long, so we got Finecast as a stop-gap. But it was about driving the market into thinking 'miniatures=plastic'.

The long-term affects are still with us too - if you really want to compete now, you need plastics. Warlord, Steamforged and
Hawk are all using plastic starter sets now. Simply because GW has made it so that's how the market buys new games. Which obviously makes it difficult for us tiny wargames businesses to compete. The number of smaller ranges/games being bought out by the likes of Warlord, Element, and Troll Trader is testament to that.

Must be nice to be GW. They make a decision, and it really does change the market.

[Tactalvanic]

I just spent 10 minutes browsing Putty and Paint. Easily some of the best miniature work ever seen, and a healthy split of plastic and metal. Then spent another 10 minutes on Iron Sleet ... certainly one of the more creative corners of the 40k world and almost exclusively plastic. Has to be really. It's craft that goes back to Paine and Horan (Historex etc.) crossed with madness of John Blanche. Perfect! Wrapped my little tour with a trip to David Soapers blog - earned one of the first Slayer Swords back in the day and still winning them in unseemly numbers after a break from the hobby. Dave's work is almost as close as this craft gets to art and he copes admirably with plastic.

Still love metal, happy to cut plastic. Actually don't draw a distinction but each to their own.

Be good to break this discussion out into a separate thread perhaps?

Thanks Keith, something nice to look at 

I had not looked at PuttyandPaint in an absolute age - much appreciate the reminder