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Author Topic: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread  (Read 2535 times)

Offline Pattus Magnus

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2022, 04:13:04 PM »
Are there any rules differences between phalanx units and pike block units? As far as I can see, the stat lines are identical for equivalent grades (ex. Elite hoplites and Silver shields), and the special abilities are the same. I also canít find any rules in the rest of the book that indicate those troop types behave differently.

Offline Easy E

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2022, 03:18:55 PM »
I am going off memory as my book is not handy, but I believe the Pike Blocks have 1 more courage than the Hoplite unit. 

However, the real difference is in the lists.  I do not think anyone in this period has elite Hoplite units, but I left it in for that "toolbox" approach.  The Elite Pike Block is also very limited, but some of the Diadochi/Successors have them in the lists. 

Of course, always remember page 5 if that is not to your liking.   lol     
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Offline Pattus Magnus

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2022, 06:07:29 PM »
Thanks for the info. I completely agree with your rationale, but it didnít end up reflected in the stat-lines printed in the book. I just checked and the Courage levels are the same (5) for all of the phalanx and pike block troop types, except for the White Shield pike blocks, which are Courage 4 (a point lower than Militia Phalanx!).

I wonder if some errors slipped in at some point and didnít get caught before printing. I understand that the rules are a toolbox and players can tweak them (totally agree with that philosophy), but it might be worth double-checking the stat lines and releasing an errata page if some donít fit what you intended. The rules look very solid to me (and Iím looking at retrofitting some in Men of Bronze), so it would be a shame if anyone was put off due to printing mistakes!

Offline Easy E

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2022, 07:46:08 PM »
Any mistake is on me and not a printing mistake.  I am amazed how I can read something like, a gazillion times; and other folks see it on read 1.  Gah!  Most likely a version control issue on my end more than anything. 

However, it never really came up as a problem in playtesting, so I will see how it plays out with more outstanding feedback like yours.  I keep track of all of it, and try to correct as we go. 

For example,  Warband Infantry point costs in Men of Bronze.  They are 6, while Peltasts are 4, but they have identical stats but fewer special rules.  In playtesting, the Peltasts kept getting stomped into the floor, while the warband infantry were winning games.  6 seems like the right points, but the readers were rightly quick to point out the flaws in that thinking.  I posted an errata about it on my blog soon after based on the feedback. 

Offline Pattus Magnus

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2022, 08:47:12 PM »
I write for a living and know what you mean about not seeing mistakes in a draft - I do it all the time! Iím always grateful to colleagues when they point out little details that slip by me.

Itís interesting what you said about the peltasts and war band infantry performing so differently. It certainly highlights how important feedback from playtesters is!

Iím hoping to test the rules out soon. Iíll be sure to post in this thread if I notice any unexpected interactions between rules.

Offline painterman

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2022, 04:48:02 PM »
Hello
Iím considering these rules for a fledgling Republican Roman army. Can I ask if the army lists or unit types will enable fighting with Germanic tribes?
Many thanks
Simon

Offline guitarheroandy

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2022, 04:48:20 PM »
Played my first game yesterday - Sulla's Romans vs Pontics. I went with a mixed force with 1 x veteran, 1 x regular and 2 x militia legions, 1 x light infantry, 1 x light cavalry and 2 x archers and slingers. the Pontic player went a bit more 'elite' - two bronze shield phalanxes, 2 x heavy armoured cavalry and 2 x  skirmishers.

We didn't use any of the advanced rules or complications for this first game. We made some errors, notably making a right mess of what units can and can't do when wavering (we corrected that halfway through) and I forgot that Legion adds +2 not +1 to armour!  ::) Overall, the Romans scraped a win, but only just...

We really liked the rules and are playing again on Monday (this time Grahame is bringing Celts and I've altered my Roman list to be more Julius Caesar-ish)

Couple of queries: Is there any bonus for fighting uphill of an enemy? We couldn't find it and felt that there should be something... Did we just miss it?

Also (and I acknowledge that this could be a hangover from my days playing Warhammer Ancient Battles) there were a couple of occasions where feeble skirmishing units routed and then they panicked legionaries and other equally 'hard' troops into Wavering. Was it a specific decision to allow 'proper' troops to be affected by the withdrawal of troops they'd in reality expect to run away from trouble anyway?

I fully realise we could 'house-rule' both of these if required and it may be that the latter isn't required anyway as it's possibly just an old WAB thing...

Finally, a question about Rallying:

The book states 'This can only be done when the units have been activated. A player using Commander's Gaze to rally a unit from wavering counts as the unit's activation.'

The last bit I get - they can't be activated to move or fight if they've rallied in that turn. But what does the first bit mean? Do you have to activate all other non-wavering units first before the wavering ones?

I presume that a unit that has rallied using Commander's Gaze can then use Commander's Gaze again to do other stuff, i.e. counter charge someone charging them? We played it like that when Grahame's phalanx used Commander's Gaze to rally, then used another to counter-charge my legionaries when charged by them when I activated them (of course, they weren't actually a phalanx at this point as they'd rallied to open order and he hadn't any more Commander's Gaze to reform phalanx as well as counter-charge.)

Thanks in advance.

Offline guitarheroandy

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2022, 04:51:58 PM »
Hello
Iím considering these rules for a fledgling Republican Roman army. Can I ask if the army lists or unit types will enable fighting with Germanic tribes?
Many thanks
Simon

You can easily create an early German list for these rules as barbarian warriors can be created from a number of unit types depending on how you see them (e.g. heedless charging irregular infantry sound very 'Early Germanic' to me!)

Offline painterman

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2022, 05:04:23 PM »
Thatís great - many thanks

Offline Easy E

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2022, 09:29:23 PM »
Finally, a question about Rallying:

The book states 'This can only be done when the units have been activated. A player using Commander's Gaze to rally a unit from wavering counts as the unit's activation.'

The last bit I get - they can't be activated to move or fight if they've rallied in that turn. But what does the first bit mean? Do you have to activate all other non-wavering units first before the wavering ones?

I presume that a unit that has rallied using Commander's Gaze can then use Commander's Gaze again to do other stuff, i.e. counter charge someone charging them? We played it like that when Grahame's phalanx used Commander's Gaze to rally, then used another to counter-charge my legionaries when charged by them when I activated them (of course, they weren't actually a phalanx at this point as they'd rallied to open order and he hadn't any more Commander's Gaze to reform phalanx as well as counter-charge.)


Yes to both. 

If you Rally a unit, it counts as them being activated. 

However, you can use a Commander's Gaze at any time, so they could use a Commander's Gaze to do other actions outside of normal activation. 


Now, onto your WAB-esque questions:

As for fighting uphill, there is no inherent advantage UNLESS you have decided that the hill itself is difficult or dangerous terrain.  Then the rules for those terrain types apply.  Otherwise, there are no "additional" benefits.  Terrain is intentionally very broad and simple. 

Regarding wavering, it is INTENDED that harder units could be forced to waver by other, lighter troops being routed.  Sure, you expect the light troops to fall back, but seeing fellow soldiers getting butchered and running away makes many a soldier start to wonder what the hell you are doing here in the first place!  Typically, the higher Discipline rating troops manage to get the single success they need, BUT not always.  Plus, wavering troops lose formation benefits and becomes much squishier!  In practice, no unit is expendable and you have to make decisions about if the loss of the unit is worth the potential side effects in Morale/Command and Control.   

This game is intended to be all about decisions, decisions, decisions!

I am super glad to hear you had a good time playing the game!   :-* :-* :-* :-*

   

Offline guitarheroandy

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2022, 09:50:05 PM »


As for fighting uphill, there is no inherent advantage UNLESS you have decided that the hill itself is difficult or dangerous terrain.  Then the rules for those terrain types apply.  Otherwise, there are no "additional" benefits.  Terrain is intentionally very broad and simple. 

Regarding wavering, it is INTENDED that harder units could be forced to waver by other, lighter troops being routed.  Sure, you expect the light troops to fall back, but seeing fellow soldiers getting butchered and running away makes many a soldier start to wonder what the hell you are doing here in the first place!  Typically, the higher Discipline rating troops manage to get the single success they need, BUT not always.  Plus, wavering troops lose formation benefits and becomes much squishier!  In practice, no unit is expendable and you have to make decisions about if the loss of the unit is worth the potential side effects in Morale/Command and Control.   


Thank you for the swift response.

I think we may adapt the terrain selection process a little - i.e. level 1 hill counts as 'open ground' whereas a level 2 hill counts as 'difficult' ground, as that might cover it more than adequately, (although it'd leave our beloved legionaries and phalangites (etc) stuck in open order.)

I like your explanation about skirmishers (etc) routing. It certainly makes you think about whether or not you select such units for your army and indeed what you do with them if you do select them. Decisions and choices certainly do dominate one's thinking from my experience of this first game and I do agree that this is a good thing.

I'll let you know how our foray into Gaul goes on Monday!  :D

Offline Easy E

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2022, 10:00:45 PM »
Hello
Iím considering these rules for a fledgling Republican Roman army. Can I ask if the army lists or unit types will enable fighting with Germanic tribes?
Many thanks
Simon

The rules are written for an earlier time period BUT the Romans were always facing Barbarian tribes so there is plenty of scope for barbarians of various styles and types.  There is no specific list for Germanic Tribes in the rules though. 

However, there are plenty of unit types and special rules that will allow you to easily make one.   

Offline guitarheroandy

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2022, 09:04:27 AM »
Hi, a couple of queries from our second game last night (which was great fun - a bloody draw between Julius Caesar's Romans and British Celts - the 'Ancient British Panzer Division' of chariots (nasty things!!) did its work, but the legions just about held on, despite some shocking dice rolling.)

So, query 1: At what point in a game turn must you stop using Commander's Gaze? E.g. after combat, my Gallic Cavalry are down to 1 Courage. I had three CG left over. They have passed their discipline check, so can I use the remaining 3 CG to harangue them back up to 4 courage now, i.e. before the end phase, or do I have to waste those CG tokens now and try to harangue the cavalry next turn assuming I can spare the CG tokens to do so next turn?
Can I even use 3 tokens to, in effect, harangue the same unit 3 times in one turn?

Query 2: Also, I understand that the use of CG tokens is 'outside' the normal activations sequence and are separate to them, but can I just check I've got this right?
My cavalry are about 25 inches away from enemy horse. I can move 12 inches on a normal activation. But I can't now use a Commander's Gaze to order a charge to cover the remaining 13 inches can I, because a charge is basically in effect 'converting a move activation' isn't it, thereby adding a further 50% of your base move to enable you to move and fight in one activation? (Rather like 'Move & Shoot' is not activate to move, then move again and shoot, but rather is simply activate to move, then play your CG token so the skirmishers can shoot.) Do you see what I mean?

Anyway, it was a very enjoyable game (we really like the rules) and there were no more queries. I think I'm facing Parthians next time we play, although that won't be for a couple of weeks (my regular opponent basically owns pretty much every ancient army under the sun!)

Offline Easy E

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2022, 03:16:29 PM »
So glad you are having fun!  I also love the variety of armies that you are trying this out with.   

Query 1:
Regarding Harangue your unit's Courage.  Yes, you can as long as it is before the End Phase and when you lose Commander's Gaze.  I am surprised you were engaged and had that much left!   


Query 2:
Next, a close reading will indicate that you have to call the charge before you move as it converts a normal Move activation into a charge.  A charge is a type of movement that allows movement AND combat in the same turn.

Regarding Cavalry and charging, it is important to note that cavalry would only charge 12 +6 for 18 total MU.  A charge only adds half your movement rounding up.       

Offline guitarheroandy

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Re: Wars of The Republic Rules Queries/Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2022, 03:43:16 PM »
So glad you are having fun!  I also love the variety of armies that you are trying this out with.   

Query 1:
Regarding Harangue your unit's Courage.  Yes, you can as long as it is before the End Phase and when you lose Commander's Gaze.  I am surprised you were engaged and had that much left!   


Query 2:
Next, a close reading will indicate that you have to call the charge before you move as it converts a normal Move activation into a charge.  A charge is a type of movement that allows movement AND combat in the same turn.

Regarding Cavalry and charging, it is important to note that cavalry would only charge 12 +6 for 18 total MU.  A charge only adds half your movement rounding up.     

The haranguing incident occurred because my opponent was being most 'un-Barbarian' and was having back trying to manouevre the chariots for a decisive charge  ::) lol - my  cavalry and his were the only units engaged at that point.

My wording of the charge question was rubbish but you've answered it anyway as we kinda figured out for ourselves what the rule means and i was just checking we got it right - and we did!

Thanks very much for the reply. And yes, my regular opponent likes to test me with a range of opposing forces! Gonna crack on with painting my Early Republican Romans and Samnites now as that's mainly what I bought the rules for (although I'm really enjoying dragging the Marian Romans out for a few games too!)

 

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