Seminole Wars gaming, general style, mechanics, rules discussion

[Smokeyrone]

Hi guys.  TSATF is perfect for Seminole wars.  Being my go to rules anyway, THATS my rules.  But under any rules, here's what my studies point to for games:

- mostly raids on plantations, supply depots, etc, or ambush the column/baggage train, OR search n destroy.

The US regulars shoot good, are pretty tough, and have a high success rate in melee/charges.

The militia shoot better, move a bit better in rough, but aren't "in" for bayonet charges or melee

The Seminoles shoot very well first time, it gets worse for each fire turn, and they are definitely not big on charging or receiving melee.  Shoot n scoot style.  Cept for raids.

Maroons shot ok, but will take advantage of a encouraging melee opportunity, and will take off under pressure.

So, gonna make it hard for seminoles to charge a quality foe, but add modifiers that encourage finishing off a weakened foe.

Basically, small 10-12 man units, seminoles victory not necessarily based on holding the field or besting the foe.   Getting our alive is a big thing.   The US, they gotta do stuff to actually "win".


So, that's my "gist" going into specific rules writing.   

Thoughts?

[has.been]

I do recall First Corp were going to do a Seminole range (in the end they never did).
The idea was to do three figures for each white character.
Standing, wading & chest deep holding rifle above head.
Using the average wargames table with a blue cloth & scattered hills to represent
the swamps & dry bits.
Seminoles knew the ways without trekking through the swampy bits.
Whites could keep weapons & ammo dry, but then would be slow to return fire,
or be quick to return fire & rick damp powder.
It sounded interesting then, & I await to see how you get on.

[Inkpaduta]

At the Dade fight the Seminoles never really charged until almost all the soldiers were dead.
They won by very accurate fire that wore the army down. I would say this would be more their style
of fighting than charging anyone. They don't really have the numbers for many charges.

[Smokeyrone]

At the Dade fight the Seminoles never really charged until almost all the soldiers were dead.
They won by very accurate fire that wore the army down. I would say this would be more their style
of fighting than charging anyone. They don't really have the numbers for many charges.

Yup.

And they were really goid at accurate fure, then disappearing.

Gotta take that into consideration when applying them to your rules.

[OB]

A very useful thread boys thank you.  I have some Seminoles and I was wondering how to rate them. this is a great help. Some of my Seminoles below.

[Smokeyrone]

A very useful thread boys thank you.  I have some Seminoles and I was wondering how to rate them. this is a great help. Some of my Seminoles below.

Ya know, they are kinda like Ashantis in fighting style.   

"Distant Drums" is really a great scenario.   Blow up a "Spanish/smuggler" depot, then lead civilians back to safety in terrain swarming with Seminoles.    And roll for alligator attacks when crossing water!  And bull sharks!

[Smokeyrone]

Anyone who games this, feel free to explain how you fit the Seminole unit into your rules and mechanics.   

I like TSATF unit size of maybe 8-12 figures in 1/1 ration.    A "company" of 3 or so 10 man regular infantry units seems accurate.   And 50 or so Seminoles makes it a major battle for those wars, eh?

[BillK]

smokey...  good to see some Seminole War discussion coming back into the fore. I (we, my gaming group) used to play quite bit of TSATF and were using it for American Indian Wars skirmishes. There was also some use of Brother Against Brother; although in my view those rules don't seem to work particularly well for the types of games you noted in your original post and which are the types of scenarios I think are good Seminole War games.

Because I was/am the one in our group most interested in the American Indian Wars, and as you know interested in 2nd Seminole War, I fiddled around with with many modifications to TSATF. Each of the mods was only marginally better than the original set of rules (which do play fairily well for Seminole Wars). Anyway, in the end I set about developing a rules set that focused on 18th-19th century frontier skirmishing. This month I'll be running two 2nd Seminole War games for our group which will hopefully be the final play tests of the rules... with the exception of possibly adding an addendum on mythical-play options.

Game play is centered on groups of 8-12 figures at 1:1, each group having one of three levels of ability, with various types of leaders. Some aspects of the rules are "gamified" because accounting for certain combat factors and human behaviors is simply impractical in terms of a tabletop game. Some rules, like those for charges, are easily modified to more specifically represent a well-known group characterisitc.

Shoot me a PM if you want to have a deeper discussion.

Bill

[mluther]

Just remember actual combat casualties in the 2SW was really low.  Due to several factors--undisciplined units, poor firing habits, natives with low powder supply which caused for lower velocity, skirmish tactics which kept targets elusive and some dense terrain. To simpifly all these possiblities and limit game modifiers I treat almost all targets in just about any cover as in heavy cover.   Natives generally have limited ammo so only the first few rounds of shooting are at full effect.  And guerilla war limits the opportunity of engaging an enemy who can choose to disappear.  Most combats last only until the Seminoles decide they've done enough damage or bought enough time to evacuate their camps.  If your games require a side getting wiped out, then something is off.
I've found that TFL's Sharp Practice is easily adaptable to this conflict.
Check out some decent resources from the Seminole War Foundation which has a nice bookstore.            https://seminolewars.org/                                                               I also recommend Christopher Kimball's podcast and his 2 books :https://agendabookshop.com/products/alachua-ambush-bloody-battles-of-the-2nd-seminole-war?_pos=1&_sid=531f734a8&_ss=r and  https://agendabookshop.com/products/seminole-creek-war-chronology-seminole-creek-war-battles-events?_pos=2&_sid=531f734a8&_ss=r  Loasds of great scenario ideas in them. 

Mark

[Inkpaduta]

To be far, most wargames have body counts that are vastly higher than what really happened.
It is part of making a game exciting and interesting. No one wants to play for three hours and
have killed four figures.

[Smokeyrone]

Great stuff guys.    For TSATF in this genre, I like having serious, and light wounds in addition to death.   Really effects units, having to deal with wounded, that most large games (like our 10+ player con games, it's basically all dead as the time prohibits much else.

[Smokeyrone]

Just remember actual combat casualties in the 2SW was really low.  Due to several factors--undisciplined units, poor firing habits, natives with low powder supply which caused for lower velocity, skirmish tactics which kept targets elusive and some dense terrain. To simpifly all these possiblities and limit game modifiers I treat almost all targets in just about any cover as in heavy cover.   Natives generally have limited ammo so only the first few rounds of shooting are at full effect.  And guerilla war limits the opportunity of engaging an enemy who can choose to disappear.  Most combats last only until the Seminoles decide they've done enough damage or bought enough time to evacuate their camps.  If your games require a side getting wiped out, then something is off.
I've found that TFL's Sharp Practice is easily adaptable to this conflict.
Check out some decent resources from the Seminole War Foundation which has a nice bookstore.            https://seminolewars.org/                                                               I also recommend Christopher Kimball's podcast and his 2 books :https://agendabookshop.com/products/alachua-ambush-bloody-battles-of-the-2nd-seminole-war?_pos=1&_sid=531f734a8&_ss=r and  https://agendabookshop.com/products/seminole-creek-war-chronology-seminole-creek-war-battles-events?_pos=2&_sid=531f734a8&_ss=r  Loasds of great scenario ideas in them. 

Mark

I'm thinking Seminole units hit on a 16-20 on first vollevy on a class III target (in cover) then it's  17-20 on all subsequent fire turns, plus only half of the unit may fire each firing turn