Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: RJ on 23 September 2009, 04:33:26 PM
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Hi all,
I have the WH Great war ruleset and i play early war brits and i think its great. The rules are fast and furious, lots of minis and dice rolling - just what i like!
I have contemptible little armies but it just doesnt grasp me, although some rules are fun and the army lists are very useful.
I want to expand into BoB/RCW because i love the models, imagery and history. Im thinking - can i adapt the GW rules for this period?
Im thinking yes but i was wondering what you guys would change/add to make it more suitable.
Also, what GW army lists would you use to correspond to the various BoB forces.
Any help is greatly aprericiated.
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Of course you can, but keep in mind that WTGW is ment for large forces. If you intend to play with less than 50 models per side there are other rules more suited for this (Price of Glory, Triumph and Tragedy etc.).
Another thing you have to remember is that even with the regular forces of the WTGW-rulebook morale is a problem when facing overwhelming firepower and little cover. With BoB you will have lots of low morale troops, I recommend to strictly limit the number of heavy weapons you use unless you want to see most armies running away on turn one, and take a lot of terrain for cover.
You can use several of the profiles in the WTGW-book as model for BoB-forces, but you'll have to make up your own stats for irregular forces like Mongols or Bandits. Remember that in the back of beyond there have been no crack storm trooper units, stick with the second rate profiles of WTGW for the better units in the BoB (with the exception of the british)! Use the early war close formations for red, white or chinese 'regulars'. For strategic ratings, compared to the WTGW-armies some BoB-armies must have a negative rating. As this is silly you have to do a new scale that is not comparable to the one in WTGW.
Give it a try and let us know the results!
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If you search the WAB Forum Great War section you will find some amateur BoB Great War Lists for Warlord Chineese and others that you can download. Search on Bob or the user bluepixieevil
http://wabforum.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=58&sid=59f167851b84f9c3de25469a1d3903f7
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Great input guys thankyou very much!
The lists from the WAB forum are very useful and im likely to give them a try.
I read that the creator made three other lists but i couldnt find them when i searched? Its a shame as im very interested in the chinese bandits list.
Is there any more info / advice out there?
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I think its hard to beat Chris Peers army lists for general background info (including the Chinese lists). I agree re his rules. They also suffer from being adapted from a WWI set.
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I think its hard to beat Chris Peers army lists for general background info (including the Chinese lists). I agree re his rules. They also suffer from being adapted from a WWI set.
Agreed, they are awesome and have given me so much inspiration and a basis for converting to TGW rules.
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Have you considered "Through the Mud & Blood" from Too Fat Lardies? As written, they are WWI rules but our group used them for a Mad Baron vs. Chinese Warlord game that was lots of fun. The rules allow you to customize your commanders some, so we added a warlord exectioner and allowed for the possibility that Baron might suddenly spot a Bolshevik in his ranks :D
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I've used "Mud & Blood" for BoB games and I think it works great. It is a great game system once you get the hang of it. If you aren't a veteran of IABSM it may require some time spent on the 2FL yahoogroup for clarifications.
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Great input guys thankyou very much!
The lists from the WAB forum are very useful and im likely to give them a try.
I read that the creator made three other lists but i couldnt find them when i searched? Its a shame as im very interested in the chinese bandits list.
Is there any more info / advice out there?
Bandits:
http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=4332
Chinese Warlord army:
http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=4333
Dinosaur Hunters:
http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=4378
Chinghai Army:
http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=4741
Bolsheviks:
http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=5837
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like with any WH rules, WHAB is very dependant on the army lists for balance
basically "Grat War" has every example units you need for BOB
maybe a little weak on armoured cars
but the army lists are for western front trench war, which is a little bit different
so just be careful with the heavy weapons
has "over the top" been released yet ?
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Thanks to everyone for your input and for the remaining links to the WAB conversion lists.
If anyone has had the chance to read through thed bolshevik list, what sort of changes would you make to field a white russian force?
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this seems like a generic list
basically the army formation would be for the bolsheviks from 1918 to 1921
from many regular and raw formations (inexperienced) and few elite at the start to increasingly more veteran formations and sophisticated equipment towards the end
for the whites it is vice versa:
crack elite at the start and a bunch of ragged bandits in the end when the former elite has been replaced with deserters and forced conscripts
so You can use them for both red and white, but of course replace comissars, red guard and cheka with appropriate units (colour and officer regiments eg, entente advisors for comissars)
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I use The Great War with minimal adaptions for colonial games with roughly 50 figures a side. As long as you don't take too many machine guns etc it should work well. 40k is a very versatile set, and can be used for just about any period.
That said, I'm always on the lookout for a better ruleset, I've just yet to find one...
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I think its hard to beat Chris Peers army lists for general background info (including the Chinese lists).
which books would you recommend getting? :)
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A friend is getting into this and we have discussed it a bit. Things I think need changing from the Great War rules are:
1) MGs can move even after they have been fired. I would look at reducing their firepower too, to reflect poor training, maintenance and limited ammunition. (I would also make artillery slightly more random, for the same reasons.)
2) Something needs to be done to make charging cavalry more effective if you want to play Poland, Southern Russia or Siberia. A good cavalry unit from those places should be able to take on an isolated line infantry unit frontally. The mechanism presumably would need to be morale based.
3) You need rules for tachankas. (They are not "inferior armoured cars". Not even close.)
4) You need rules for armoured trains. Not because they were that important, but people won't generally play RCW without wanting to add a train eventually.
5) Assuming you want to play RCW and not BoB, I would add some rules to reflect the different mentality of the soldiers. In particular the fear of being surrounded or cut off by a fast moving battle.
I would add that I think Chris Peer's lists bear little resemblance to actual RCW armies, and are a poor basis for real RCW lists. They are pure BoB.
I have written a list of provisional values for the troop types encountered for my friend. I am happy to forward this if you are interested. It may seem odd but they have morale values not grossly different from the WWI lists. I was sort of hoping to convert them into proper lists for him soon, but I have been busy elsewhere.
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@Mark, I think we have different oppinion on this, at least on most points
I play 40K for many years now, so, here my 50ct:
You are right about the cavalry - this is always the "stepchild" in 40 K
MG are fine - there is the chance of jamming, and also not moving and firing in the same turn is OK with 9 shots
for this there are LMG
Morale and outflanking are a major aspect in the mechanism, no need to change
You can play Tachankas by simply adding heavy weapons to cavalry - there You have Your moving HMG
(I have lizardmen tachankas for 40K ;))
train rules are a problem - in every gameset (I know Your RED ACTION is the only one with train rules)
You can convert rules from existing ones - either You use the downloadable 40K VCR, or You improvise with trains combined from available vehicles - both needs a little bit of knowledge and experience with the ruleset
the major "pissoff" with 40K has always been the turn mechanism - but You can switch to gaming alternatively unit to unit and not side to side very easilly - I can provide a tested small ruleset for that
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former user,
I believe the Great War rules do not allow MGs to move in the game at all once they have fired. While this is acceptable for WWI, it is not particularly historical for the RCW. That they should not be able to move and fire in the same move is not the issue.
I'm assuming that calling tachankas "heavy weapons" would similarly not allow them to move and fire in the same move. You might be able to fire an MG from a cart while it is moving, but you won't hit anything at all. (In fact I reckon at all but a walk you would find standing on a cart moving across unleveled ground to be almost impossible, let alone aiming.) But either way you also need to write movement rules. Even if you assume they move at cavalry speed, they do not cross obstacles or terrain in the same way - even a minor ditch will stop a cart. To just call them "cavalry" doesn't work.
I think you have misunderstood about what I feel needs adjusting in the morale rules. It's not the basic mechanism or values, and certainly nothing to do with flank attacks, but only the situation of troops out of contact with local units. In the Great War troops knew where their own front lines were, even when cut off. They also knew that a loss of contact with their attached units was likely to be temporary, and that someone would attempt to communicate with them. Troops therefore went where they were ordered, and were prepared to accept a certain degree of isolation.
In the RCW being isolated was very dangerous. The front lines might be 20 kilometres away by the next day, and the staff work was sloppy enough that units that went missing were left to fend for themselves. Certainly no-one was going to send ammunition up or fetch any wounded. Worse, the fluid front lines and similar uniforms meant that troops were always uncertain where their friends were and if a unit coming towards them was an enemy or not, so escaping back to one's own lines was tricky. RCW troops were scared of isolation even if they could not see any enemy.
Wise RCW commanders did not order conscripts into isolated positions, as it was likely to result in considerable losses through desertion. Perhaps whole units changing sides. And the committed of both sides feared capture rather more than death, since torture of the leaders of the opposing side was not uncommon.
RCW units therefore huddled together, in a way that the 40K-based rules do not cover. Some mechanism that forces this will replicate better the much superior performance of the high morale units of both sides - because the performance of the best troops was not related to their ability to shoot (for example, Red sailors were not good shots, and the early White officer units sometimes hardly had any ammo to shoot anyway).
If you leave all the rules intact from the Great War version, save for adding tachankas, I have to ask why play RCW at all? You have a favourite peeve of mine, which is WWI played with RCW figures.
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you are right, the rules do need some change
and there seems to be some misunderstanding
You relate to the WHGW rules, whereas I see these as part of the 40K ruleset
as such there is a great inherent variability to import 40K rules since they are fully compatible, but work within the set (as for WHFB and WHAB)
I do not recall that HMG cannot change their position after firing... ? (my mistake?)
anyway, heavy weapons fixed in vehicles can fire during movement (wasn't it that Tachankas protected cavalry retreats against other cavalry on the move?)
the 40K ruleset has its oddities, eg cavalry, the turn sequence, the many dicing levels
by the omission of saving throws, one level is gone, which is an improvement
so basically, by looking into the 40K rules, you can find many examples adaptable to RCW
so basically no need to invent new ones
by stating that you can have Tachankas as cavalry with HMG, I was referring to the way to buy them for the army list, and to play them with a minor rule ignorance (if able to fire from the move), but which is basically in lione with the main rules for vehicle mounted weapons
this just as an example
so as a quintessence, adapting WHGW rules by import from 40K, not as invention or "change", keeps the rules balanced and does not create problems
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In the Great War troops knew where their own front lines were, even when cut off. They also knew that a loss of contact with their attached units was likely to be temporary, and that someone would attempt to communicate with them. Troops therefore went where they were ordered, and were prepared to accept a certain degree of isolation.
Mark, I admire your knowledge about RCW, but here you are wrong. I guess you meant the western front, but even there it was possible for a unit to get lost. More so in the east during major offensives.
I do not recall that HMG cannot change their position after firing... ? (my mistake?)
Mark is right on this.
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which books would you recommend getting?
Back of Beyond and Both Army Lists books.
The first Army List book covers western front forces and the second covers Middle East. If you plan on not using any of the major powers, then you can just go with the Back of Beyond list.
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Thanks O5 :)
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I guess you meant the western front, but even there it was possible for a unit to get lost. More so in the east during major offensives.
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that units did not get lost or isolated in WWI, but only that the consequences were different. If a French unit got lost, then heading more or less West at walking pace would get them back to their own lines. If a White conscript unit got lost in the RCW, then finding its parent unit again was very difficult (and in fact the unit would evaporate through desertion). Nor did French officers expect to be tortured if the Germans found them first.
The whole mentality was utterly different. The idea that a 1916 German unit might desert en masse to the French was unthinkable. Yet units as big as brigades would shoot their commanders and suddenly swap sides in the RCW. Units in WWI would frequently fight to the last bullet, whereas units in the RCW would run away at the sight of enemy cavalry.
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got it
see, these circumstances are easily simulated by simply adopting the 40K IG rules for command structure
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You have the jump on me there as I've never played 40K. However, I shall investigate this further, since my friend has and keeping the rules within the same family makes sense.
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3) You need rules for tachankas. (They are not "inferior armoured cars". Not even close.)
I have written a list of provisional values for the troop types encountered for my friend. I am happy to forward this if you are interested. It may seem odd but they have morale values not grossly different from the WWI lists. I was sort of hoping to convert them into proper lists for him soon, but I have been busy elsewhere.
Yes please!
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which books would you recommend getting? :)
I am putting together a book list with our new rules (should be out next year), but if there were three books that give you the very best flavour of the period I would heartily recommend the following:
1. Peter Hopkirk: Setting the East Ablaze! This is what got me hooked
2. Maj General L C Dunsterville: The Adventures of Dunsterforce - Brits in Baku. Amazing scenario detail (like White Russian defenders leaving the front line most nights to go to the Opera!). I think Caliver Books have a cheap re-print available
3. Ferdinand Ossendowski: Beasts, Men and Gods. Welcome to the world of The Mad Baron. Slightly fictionalised
4. James Palmer: The Bloody White Baron. The reality was even worse than the myth....
(yes I know that's four, but they are all brilliant)
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Gents,
Thanks for this great thread. I am now considering converting Great War for the Great Game.
In addition to Ignatieff's excellent reading list, I'd like to recommend these additional books:
1. Other books by Hopkirk, including Great Game and Like Hidden Fire (On Secret Service East of Constantinople). They are for eras earlier than the RCW period (nineteenth century for GG and WWI for LHF) but set some good groundwork for this period.
2. Mission to Tashkent by FM Bailey. Hopkirk references this frequently in Stting the East Ablaze, but is definitely worth reading in the original.
3. Although written in and set in WWI and not the aftermath, John Buchan's Greenmantle is a cracking good read.
For films (etc), check out Reilly Ace of Spies (starts off in Baku), and the Russian/Soviet classic, White Sun of the Desert
Ignatieff, can you tell us more about these new rules of your
Regards
Will
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Gents,
Thanks for this great thread. I am now considering converting Great War for the Great Game.
In addition to Ignatieff's excellent reading list, I'd like to recommend these additional books:
1. Other books by Hopkirk, including Great Game and Like Hidden Fire (On Secret Service East of Constantinople). They are for eras earlier than the RCW period (nineteenth century for GG and WWI for LHF) but set some good groundwork for this period.
2. Mission to Tashkent by FM Bailey. Hopkirk references this frequently in Stting the East Ablaze, but is definitely worth reading in the original.
3. Although written in and set in WWI and not the aftermath, John Buchan's Greenmantle is a cracking good read.
For films (etc), check out Reilly Ace of Spies (starts off in Baku), and the Russian/Soviet classic, White Sun of the Desert
Ignatieff, can you tell us more about these new rules of your
Regards
Will
And a couple more books:
1.Mark Plant, Tom Hillman, Alexis Mehtidis: How Odessa became Red. The battles of the French and Greek intervention in the Ukraine in 1919. Corking source for a very little known campaign. Maps, detailed army lists and a ripping read
2. Christopher Dobson and John Miller: The Day We Almost Bomber Moscow - The Allied War in Russia 1918-1920. Good read
3. Jamie Bisher: White Terror. Cossack Warlords of the Trans-Siberian. Academic work, but fascinating
4. Fighting the Bolsheviks: The Russian War Memoir of Private First Class Donald E. Carey US Army 1918-19. Americans in Archangel. Great memoir which explains the daftness of the Allied intervention
5. Tales of the Mountain Gunners, edited by C.H.T. MacFetrdige and J.P. Warren. Stirring true tales from the NW Frontier
6. Brian Robson: Crisis on the Frontier. The Third Afghan War and the Campaign in Waziristan 1919-20. Recent (2004) histroy of the campaign, but written in a refreshingly traditional style by a former soldier
More later
Rules will be fast play, card based, with a tip to Hollywood.
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Thanks, Ignatieff, I will await its arrival patiently (at first. Later there will be mild impatience, to be followed by good-natured ranting, ill-natured ranting, and finally exquisite praise for the top quality product).
I'll throw in one more recommendation - the terribly over-priced but nice little summary, Risings and Rebellions published by Foundry:
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/herbert2.asp
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Yep, they are good books, both the pre-war and later war ones. If you hang around long enough they come out in deals, which makes it a bit more palatable.
Couple more titles worth reading:
1. Charles Drage: General of Fortune. The fabulous story of One Armed Sutton. Bonkers
2. Charles Drage: The Life and Times of General Two-Gun Cohen. Both books about mercs in war lord China. The Sutton one is better.
3. Michael Burt: Lean Brown Men (!): fiction on the NW Frontier, but wonderfully evocative
4. Mark Thompson: The White War. Life and Death on the Italian Front 1915-19. Nothing strictly to do with our period, but a great, great read and how ill-trained armies(the Italians) fared against better trained armies (the Austrians). I found it useful for that alone.
More later
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. Peter Hopkirk: Setting the East Ablaze! This is what got me hooked
2. Maj General L C Dunsterville: The Adventures of Dunsterforce - Brits in Baku. Amazing scenario detail (like White Russian defenders leaving the front line most nights to go to the Opera!). I think Caliver Books have a cheap re-print available
3. Ferdinand Ossendowski: Beasts, Men and Gods. Welcome to the world of The Mad Baron. Slightly fictionalised
4. James Palmer: The Bloody White Baron. The reality was even worse than the myth....
Mr Ossendowski probably wrote a fairly historical account of his time in Siberia. The problem is that the version we have passed through the hands of Lewis Stanton Palen. At that point it lost all credibility as a historical work - not because it is all fiction, but because we cannot untangle the fiction from the fact.
Be aware that General Dunsterville's book is also not an entirely accurate historical record, but an attempt at vindication. In any case the Baku fighting was desultory and the armies involved are boringly khaki. Much better value for wargamers is the British Intervention in Trans-Caspia: you get White officers, Cossacks, Turkmen, Brits, Indians, armed trains, Red Army and Red Guard all mixed together.
Ellis Colonel C.H. The Transcaspian Episode 1918-1919. London 1963.
Tod Colonel J.K. Operations in Trans-Caspia, 1918-1919. Pallas Armata 1997.
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Be aware that General Dunsterville's book is also not an entirely accurate historical record, but an attempt at vindication.
Ellis Colonel C.H. The Transcaspian Episode 1918-1919. London 1963.
Tod Colonel J.K. Operations in Trans-Caspia, 1918-1919. Pallas Armata 1997.
Of course it is. Which military memoir isnt? Who can forget Ceasar and his giant Britons, usefully explaining away why he couldnt conquer the island!
Good sources on Transcaspia. Thanks
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Thanks for the book recommendations :)
and I also can't wait for those rules.