WH Great war ruleset for BoB / RCW gaming?

[former user]

@Mark, I think we have different oppinion on this, at least on most points
I play 40K for many years now, so, here my 50ct:
You are right about the cavalry - this is always the "stepchild" in 40 K
MG are fine - there is the chance of jamming, and also not moving and firing in the same turn is OK with 9 shots
for this there are LMG
Morale and outflanking are a major aspect in the mechanism, no need to change
You can play Tachankas by simply adding heavy weapons to cavalry - there You have Your moving HMG
(I have lizardmen tachankas for 40K  )
train rules are a problem - in every gameset  (I know Your RED ACTION is the only one with train rules)
You can convert rules from existing ones - either You use the downloadable 40K VCR, or You improvise with trains combined from available vehicles - both needs a little bit of knowledge and experience with the ruleset

the major "pissoff" with 40K has always been the turn mechanism - but You can switch to gaming alternatively unit to unit and not side to side very easilly - I can provide a tested small ruleset for that

[Mark Plant]

former user,

I believe the Great War rules do not allow MGs to move in the game at all once they have fired. While this is acceptable for WWI, it is not particularly historical for the RCW. That they should not be able to move and fire in the same move is not the issue.

I'm assuming that calling tachankas "heavy weapons" would similarly not allow them to move and fire in the same move. You might be able to fire an MG from a cart while it is moving, but you won't hit anything at all. (In fact I reckon at all but a walk you would find standing on a cart moving across unleveled ground to be almost impossible, let alone aiming.) But either way you also need to write movement rules. Even if you assume they move at cavalry speed, they do not cross obstacles or terrain in the same way - even a minor ditch will stop a cart. To just call them "cavalry" doesn't work.

I think you have misunderstood about what I feel needs adjusting in the morale rules. It's not the basic mechanism or values, and certainly nothing to do with flank attacks, but only the situation of troops out of contact with local units. In the Great War troops knew where their own front lines were, even when cut off. They also knew that a loss of contact with their attached units was likely to be temporary, and that someone would attempt to communicate with them. Troops therefore went where they were ordered, and were prepared to accept a certain degree of isolation.

In the RCW being isolated was very dangerous. The front lines might be 20 kilometres away by the next day, and the staff work was sloppy enough that units that went missing were left to fend for themselves. Certainly no-one was going to send ammunition up or fetch any wounded. Worse, the fluid front lines and similar uniforms meant that troops were always uncertain where their friends were and if a unit coming towards them was an enemy or not, so escaping back to one's own lines was tricky. RCW troops were scared of isolation even if they could not see any enemy.

Wise RCW commanders did not order conscripts into isolated positions, as it was likely to result in considerable losses through desertion. Perhaps whole units changing sides. And the committed of both sides feared capture rather more than death, since torture of the leaders of the opposing side was not uncommon.

RCW units therefore huddled together, in a way that the 40K-based rules do not cover. Some mechanism that forces this will replicate better the much superior performance of the high morale units of both sides - because the performance of the best troops was not related to their ability to shoot (for example, Red sailors were not good shots, and the early White officer units sometimes hardly had any ammo to shoot anyway).

If you leave all the rules intact from the Great War version, save for adding tachankas, I have to ask why play RCW at all? You have a favourite peeve of mine, which is WWI played with RCW figures.

[former user]

you are right, the rules do need some change
and there seems to be some misunderstanding

You relate to the WHGW rules, whereas I see these as part of the 40K ruleset
as such there is a great inherent variability to import 40K rules since they are fully compatible, but work within the set  (as for WHFB and WHAB)
I do not recall that HMG cannot change their position after firing... ?  (my mistake?)

anyway, heavy weapons fixed in vehicles can fire during movement  (wasn't it that Tachankas protected cavalry retreats against other cavalry on the move?)
the 40K ruleset has its oddities, eg cavalry, the turn sequence, the many dicing levels
by the omission of saving throws, one level is gone, which is an improvement

so basically, by looking into the 40K rules, you can find many examples adaptable to RCW
so basically no need to invent new ones

by stating that you can have Tachankas as cavalry with HMG, I was referring to the way to buy them for the army list, and to play them with a minor rule ignorance (if able to fire from the move), but which is basically in lione with the main rules for vehicle mounted weapons
this just as an example

so as a quintessence, adapting WHGW rules by import from 40K, not as invention or "change", keeps the rules balanced and does not create problems

[Poliorketes]

In the Great War troops knew where their own front lines were, even when cut off. They also knew that a loss of contact with their attached units was likely to be temporary, and that someone would attempt to communicate with them. Troops therefore went where they were ordered, and were prepared to accept a certain degree of isolation.

Mark, I admire your knowledge about RCW, but here you are wrong. I guess you meant the western front, but even there it was possible for a unit to get lost. More so in the east during major offensives.

I do not recall that HMG cannot change their position after firing... ?  (my mistake?)

Mark is right on this.

[Operator5]

which books would you recommend getting?

Back of Beyond and Both Army Lists books.

The first Army List book covers western front forces and the second covers Middle East. If you plan on not using any of the major powers, then you can just go with the Back of Beyond list.

[redzed]

Thanks O5

[Mark Plant]

I guess you meant the western front, but even there it was possible for a unit to get lost. More so in the east during major offensives.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that units did not get lost or isolated in WWI, but only that the consequences were different. If a French unit got lost, then heading more or less West at walking pace would get them back to their own lines. If a White conscript unit got lost in the RCW, then finding its parent unit again was very difficult (and in fact the unit would evaporate through desertion). Nor did French officers expect to be tortured if the Germans found them first.

The whole mentality was utterly different. The idea that a 1916 German unit might desert en masse to the French was unthinkable. Yet units as big as brigades would shoot their commanders and suddenly swap sides in the RCW. Units in WWI would frequently fight to the last bullet, whereas units in the RCW would run away at the sight of enemy cavalry.

[former user]

got it

see, these circumstances are easily simulated by simply adopting the 40K IG rules for command structure

[Mark Plant]

You have the jump on me there as I've never played 40K. However, I shall investigate this further, since my friend has and keeping the rules within the same family makes sense.

[Ignatieff]

3) You need rules for tachankas. (They are not "inferior armoured cars". Not even close.)

I have written a list of provisional values for the troop types encountered for my friend. I am happy to forward this if you are interested. It may seem odd but they have morale values not grossly different from the WWI lists. I was sort of hoping to convert them into proper lists for him soon, but I have been busy elsewhere.

Yes please!

[Ignatieff]

which books would you recommend getting?

I am putting together a book list with our new rules (should be out next year), but if there were three books that give you the very best flavour of the period I would heartily recommend the following:

1. Peter Hopkirk: Setting the East Ablaze!  This is what got me hooked
2. Maj General L C Dunsterville:  The Adventures of Dunsterforce - Brits in Baku.  Amazing scenario detail (like White Russian defenders leaving the front line most nights to go to the Opera!).  I think Caliver Books have a cheap re-print available
3. Ferdinand Ossendowski: Beasts, Men and Gods.  Welcome to the world of The Mad Baron.  Slightly fictionalised
4. James Palmer: The Bloody White Baron.  The reality was even worse than the myth....

(yes I know that's four, but they are all brilliant)

[Will Bailie]

Gents,

Thanks for this great thread.  I am now considering converting Great War for the Great Game. 

In addition to Ignatieff's excellent reading list, I'd like to recommend these additional books:

1.  Other books by Hopkirk, including Great Game and Like Hidden Fire (On Secret Service East of Constantinople).  They are for eras earlier than the RCW period (nineteenth century for GG and WWI for LHF) but set some good groundwork for this period.
2.  Mission to Tashkent by FM Bailey.  Hopkirk references this frequently in Stting the East Ablaze, but is definitely worth reading in the original.
3.  Although written in and set in WWI and not the aftermath, John Buchan's Greenmantle is a cracking good read.

For films (etc), check out Reilly Ace of Spies (starts off in Baku), and the Russian/Soviet classic, White Sun of the Desert

Ignatieff, can you tell us more about these new rules of your

Regards

Will

[Ignatieff]

Gents,

Thanks for this great thread.  I am now considering converting Great War for the Great Game. 

In addition to Ignatieff's excellent reading list, I'd like to recommend these additional books:

1.  Other books by Hopkirk, including Great Game and Like Hidden Fire (On Secret Service East of Constantinople).  They are for eras earlier than the RCW period (nineteenth century for GG and WWI for LHF) but set some good groundwork for this period.
2.  Mission to Tashkent by FM Bailey.  Hopkirk references this frequently in Stting the East Ablaze, but is definitely worth reading in the original.
3.  Although written in and set in WWI and not the aftermath, John Buchan's Greenmantle is a cracking good read.

For films (etc), check out Reilly Ace of Spies (starts off in Baku), and the Russian/Soviet classic, White Sun of the Desert

Ignatieff, can you tell us more about these new rules of your

Regards

Will

And a couple more books:

1.Mark Plant, Tom Hillman, Alexis Mehtidis:  How Odessa became Red.  The battles of the French and Greek intervention in the Ukraine in 1919.  Corking source for a very little known campaign.  Maps, detailed army lists and a ripping read

2. Christopher Dobson and John Miller: The Day We Almost Bomber Moscow - The Allied War in Russia 1918-1920.  Good read

3. Jamie Bisher: White Terror.  Cossack Warlords of the Trans-Siberian.  Academic work, but fascinating

4. Fighting the Bolsheviks: The Russian War Memoir of Private First Class Donald E. Carey US Army 1918-19.  Americans in Archangel.  Great memoir which explains the daftness of the Allied intervention

5. Tales of the Mountain Gunners, edited by C.H.T. MacFetrdige and J.P. Warren.  Stirring true tales from the NW Frontier

6. Brian Robson: Crisis on the Frontier.  The Third Afghan War and the Campaign in Waziristan 1919-20.  Recent (2004) histroy of the campaign, but written in a refreshingly traditional style by a former soldier

More later

Rules will be fast play, card based, with a tip to Hollywood. 

[Will Bailie]

Thanks, Ignatieff, I will await its arrival patiently (at first.  Later there will be mild impatience, to be followed by good-natured ranting, ill-natured ranting, and finally exquisite praise for the top quality product).

I'll throw in one more recommendation - the terribly over-priced but nice little summary, Risings and Rebellions published by Foundry:
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/herbert2.asp

[Ignatieff]

Yep, they are good books, both the pre-war and later war ones.  If you hang around long enough they come out in deals, which makes it a bit more palatable.

Couple more titles worth reading:

1. Charles Drage:  General of Fortune.  The fabulous story of One Armed Sutton.  Bonkers

2. Charles Drage: The Life and Times of General Two-Gun Cohen.  Both books about mercs in war lord China.  The Sutton one is better.

3. Michael Burt: Lean Brown Men (!): fiction on the NW Frontier, but wonderfully evocative

4. Mark Thompson: The White War.  Life and Death on the Italian Front 1915-19.  Nothing strictly to do with our period, but a great, great read and how ill-trained armies(the Italians) fared against better trained armies (the Austrians).  I found it useful for that alone.

More later