Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: WarGameGuru on 06 October 2010, 02:51:57 PM
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I wanted to pick your brains LAFers. There's two games, both of which have some really nice looking models, but I never hear much talk about the games themselves.
I'm starting to dig into Urban War, which is formerly VOID. The models are really nice, and they remind me a lot of Infinity look-wise, only the Infinity models seem thinner and a bit smaller. Is it me, or do the GOT models look like they borrowed a lot of the look and feel from Infinity too? I always saw VOID as the original, and Infinity as somewhat of a copy of VOID, and then the GOT models sure look like they were inspired by Infinity. Even VOID 1.0 had some really nice models at the time, as I used to own some of the earlier Syntha and lizard fellas from it.
Any way, in terms of the games Urban War and Infinity, I never heard much about them online. Do most just think they're bad games, or is everyone just too busy with so many other titles, that those are a few that have slipped through the cracks, and never made it to anyone's radar?
I just can't believe there's not much out there about the game systems themselves, because what I've seen at a glance, they don't look like terrible games, or games to dislike, and cost-wise I'm not seeing them being any more or any less than other games from companies that make rules and models both either.
They both certainly produce nice sci-fi models. I also think VOID in general has inspired the look and feel of many models that came after it. Does anyone else feel the same in that respect?
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I think the UW minis are great, I'm not too keen on the Infinity ones - a bit too anime in too many strange poses. Fantastic sculpts, but still.
I have an UW Viridian boxed set, started trimming/assembling a few, and even got the female officer primed, but never got around to painting her because of other projects and lack of time. I was going to use her and the Copplestone Female Werewolf Hunter as a couple of die-hard zombiecalyse survivors, but got sidetracked... as with so many other plans :?
I did read through the rules for both games, and especially Infinity was interesting, using d10, as far as I remember. But the price and style of the minis put me off. Could've used proxies, of course...
I think Urban War (independent model skirmishing) and Metropolis (unit-based big skirmishes) is as good an alternative to 40K as is to be found out there. I think Urban Mammoth would be much bigger if they were marketing their stuff more aggressively, and not almost entirely through their website. You have to make yourself known to the potential customers before they come to your website, and to get known, you have to have your minis and rules on the shelves out there...
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I think Void 1.1 (and the whole subsequent franchise) suffered from the poor conduct of its then owners, I-Kore. Furthermore, I think it was hard for another game to carve a niche after the demise of Warzone and the heyday of Warhammer 40k 3rd edition.
I remember running a small Void campaign in the early 2000s, but the stress is on "small".
I liked the rules back then, being sleek and quick to play but not that adaptable (changed my mind on that based on more experience gained over the decade). I have NOT played (or even seen, for that matter) the Urban War incarnation, but if they kept to the strong points, it should be a very decent game. Not too keen on the figures, though, except for some nice "soldiery" ones in the Viridian range (not for quality, rather for style - I only like cartoony when I use it for a specific universe adaptation).
As for Infinity, they do seem to have a rather active community, but tend to be organised in specific fora (the "official" Infinity Forum, and in Germany, o12.) rather than the more "fractioned" general wargamer audience. The Infinity folks keep to themselves, I guess.
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I think the UW minis are great, I'm not too keen on the Infinity ones - a bit too anime in too many strange poses. Fantastic sculpts, but still.
I have an UW Viridian boxed set, started trimming/assembling a few, and even got the female officer primed, but never got around to painting her because of other projects and lack of time. I was going to use her and the Copplestone Female Werewolf Hunter as a couple of die-hard zombiecalyse survivors, but got sidetracked... as with so many other plans :?
I did read through the rules for both games, and especially Infinity was interesting, using d10, as far as I remember. But the price and style of the minis put me off. Could've used proxies, of course...
I think Urban War (independent model skirmishing) and Metropolis (unit-based big skirmishes) is as good an alternative to 40K as is to be found out there. I think Urban Mammoth would be much bigger if they were marketing their stuff more aggressively, and not almost entirely through their website. You have to make yourself known to the potential customers before they come to your website, and to get known, you have to have your minis and rules on the shelves out there...
Actually both don't market their products very well, that probably has a lot to do with it. When it comes to Infinity there are definitely fans of the models out there, as I do see news bits when new models are released, but no one ever talks about the game much.
Even Beasts of War did a small show on Infinity, and they covered some of it, but never really dug into it, and after that we never heard a peep from them about it. I read through some of the rules briefly, and I think many of the mechanics are quite slick, but I also think Infinity from what little I read, is a little too complex and a bit harder to pickup than even 40k.
I'm wondering if that's the issue with Infinity, if it's just too pretentious?
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I think Void 1.1 (and the whole subsequent franchise) suffered from the poor conduct of its then owners, I-Kore. Furthermore, I think it was hard for another game to carve a niche after the demise of Warzone and the heyday of Warhammer 40k 3rd edition.
I remember running a small Void campaign in the early 2000s, but the stress is on "small".
I liked the rules back then, being sleek and quick to play but not that adaptable (changed my mind on that based on more experience gained over the decade). I have NOT played (or even seen, for that matter) the Urban War incarnation, but if they kept to the strong points, it should be a very decent game. Not too keen on the figures, though, except for some nice "soldiery" ones in the Viridian range (not for quality, rather for style - I only like cartoony when I use it for a specific universe adaptation).
As for Infinity, they do seem to have a rather active community, but tend to be organised in specific fora (the "official" Infinity Forum, and in Germany, o12.) rather than the more "fractioned" general wargamer audience. The Infinity folks keep to themselves, I guess.
I've always liked some of the Void models, and the very same ones you speak of mostly the military-looking ones, and some of the cyborg-types, most of which are in the Syntha and Viridian ranges.
I also always felt Infinity was more of a European thing, and what you said backs that up. I can't count how many times I've seen Infinity models and rulebooks on clearance somewhere via an online retailer here in the US over the past year too. I thought they might be going under at one point, because MiniatureMarket blew out all their Infinity stuff not long ago as well, after I saw them on clearance elsewhere. They don't keep stuff around if it doesn't do well.
That's sad too, because I'm not an anime fan at all really, but I do like many of the Infinity models.
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Personally I like the look of the Infinity models, and like the look of the rules. Thr biggest problem is that the rules seem to be rather complex and without someone to either guide you through it or a good battle report that goes into the detail of how things work I don't really feel like getting my self together and beating myself through it for yet another game that I play but no one else near me does. But given the chance I'd jump at it being a big Ghost in the Shell lover I think helps a bit.
Duncam
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Let's see here...
Yes, I think it's fair to say that GOT was inspired by Infinity. The sculpting style is distinctive in that the proportions are a bit slimmer than other pieces out there, and thus a bit closer to "natural" proportions. Considering that Jed used to stock Infinity, and that he built his demo city for the game, I think it's safe to say that it has a soft spot in his heart. And if he liked the style and wanted his own miniature line to work with it,why not?
I've seen a number of places stock Infinity and later discard it. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason is that it's hell for a brick and mortar store to support it. The big problem is repeat sales. There are very few models that a player can field more than one or two blisters of. Once you've bought that Meteor Zond, you don't need another one. If the store wants to dedicate a peg to that product, it's only going to be sold to someone else who's looking to run a Nomads force. Another problem from the player standpoint is that it's pricey. Basic infantry models, even the ones you can field unlimited amounts of, are $6 USD apiece before any discounts. That's at least 50% higher per model than any other company for your basic grunt. I don't know if anyone else has that particular psychology, but it's in my mind.
Re: Metropolis, I know a lot of stores that bought into Void heavily. When I-Kore crashed, they couldn't move their product. Customers didn't want to get into a "dead" game, so a lot of it had to be cleared out to get space for something on the shelves that would sell. When Urban Mammoth "brought back" the game, the only thing they really brought back was the names of the factions. They did pretty much everything in their power to require new sales: changed base sizes, changed model scale (the newer ones are a bit larger than the previous ones)... Retailers who dealt with I-Kore felt that they were burned once, and weren't going to give these guys another chance.
So I guess that short form, the reason you don't hear about them is because stores aren't selling them.
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Own both and have played both...started with the entire Viridia faction for Urban War (we played VOID back in the days and loved it, so the step was logical). The game doesn't work well IMO...the whole order-system is weird and a bit too clunky (especially close combat). To me it felt like a poor attempt at an original skirmish game. Too bad, because I really like the VOID universe (although UM really screwed it...come on...Russian VASA???).
Infinity is very nice and original, but also very fast and deadly. Games can be ended by turn 2 if you don't go heavy on terrain. That's one of my gripes with the game: you really need a lot (and by that, I mean A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT) of scenery to let the game shine very well. With too few scenery, there are too many firing lanes and you'll have too many reactive shooting. This can really lead to a fast and boring game. If you add in loads and loads of scenery, the game becomes fantastic! There's a lot of strategy in the game and there are some really nice special abilities (TO Camo, Para Deployment, Hacking, etc.). The other gripe I have is the order system. The game works that each model gives you an order to spend (so 5 models = 5 orders). You can give a model one or more orders from your order pool. Yes, this means you can take a huge Landmate and a load of cheap lackeys. The lackeys stay behind in cover to provide covering fire and the Landmate stomps through the field with all of the orders. This can really become unbalanced if you and your opponent are playing different styles. In addition, heavy weapons are very deadly and tend to dominate the field. They are more accurate, pump out more shots and do more damage. That's painful in a game where each passive model can fire at enemies walking around. We made several house rules on the order system and special weapons and then it works well IMO.
All in all Infinity is a nice game if you're willing to work on it and Urban War isn't very good IMO (but the Viridian sculpts still kick ass!).
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Actually Void itself was a Rip off from the Warzone Rules,ok Warzone is a D20 and Void a D10 System,besides that the Game Mechanics were absolutely the Same,even the Counters in Void looked like the Warzone Ones...
However,Void is still very popular in my Gaming Group.Becaus of its very flexible Oobs ( there is no "you have to field Grunt Units before you can have Elite Units" and such Things),Tons of Vehicles,and a fast Gaming Speed.
Unfortunely Urban War and Metropolis arent that Great.Very unbalanced,Lack of Vehicles,some confusing Rules and much more Oob Limitations...
Check out my Photobucket if you wanna see some cool Void Stuff ;)
http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad244/Falkenhayn/Void/ (http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad244/Falkenhayn/Void/)
im not that much interested in Infinty,have so much Void Models left,that i dont want to spend more Money on more "far Sci-fi "Miniatures.The Rules seemed ok to me,as long as you like Grenades moving around the Corner etc...
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VOID the same as Warzone? How? One game used a Move-Shoot-Assault system whereas the other uses an action-based system. Totally different way of playing as Warzone allows for much more freedom in gameplay than VOID. VOID on the other hand was much more streamlined and gave quicker games (although they relied heavily on templates and OTT weaponry). Although the templates and counters are similar, the games themselves are way different IMO.
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A played some 10 games of Urban War when it was released.
The lack of balance and somewhat complete randomness of it all left us rather unimpressed.
But if you're into the background the balance won't be a problem as you would no doubt do scenarios based on something other than points armylists. ;)
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Infinity is currently my favorite game. It is the kind of game that is a little more detailed then most, but the reward is that you can use real world tactics in the course of playing the game and they have a tendency to really work.
What follows is a description of the game I did for my local game store's forums to give a quick rundown of the way things work in Infinity.
Infinity is a very fast paced and very deadly skirmish based sci fi game which uses D20s. Most games are goin' to involve less than 12 minis per side. Starter sets come with 6 minis usually one of which is unique to the starter and not available in a blister pack individually.
You build your army by spendin' points on Units (a unit is an individual figure). Unit choices are limited only to how many of a particular Unit type is available (some like Regular Infantry troops are unlimited, most Heavy Infantry Units are limited to 1 or 2 per army), there are 17 - 22 Unit choices for each of the 6 armies with many choices for each type of Unit (different weapons/equipment options). This all increased with the addition of "Human Sphere" the first expansion to Infinity. Plus a Mercenary army which can pull choices from each army except the Combined Army (aliens). So you want to spend your points on 12 guys or 2 really badass guys, it's entirely up to you.
On your turn you get 1 Order for each figure in your army (plus one additional if your LT. is still alive) to spend on issuin' orders to your troops. Orders are spent to allow your troops to do a Skill: move, shoot, throw grenade, discover a camouflaged hidden opponent, administer first aid, repair equipment, hack your opponents computers, or some other action. Skills are classified as short or long. Normally you can do 2 Short Skills per one Order or one Long Skill. Orders are spent one at a time in anyway you want, one per each guy in your group, all on one guy in your group, or any combination you see fit. Got a target you need taken out? Spend an Order to shoot him. Still alive? Spend an Order to shoot him again. Repeat as necessary. ;D Now what really sets this game apart from all the others is, while it's your turn and you're spendin' your Orders shootin' at my guys I'm not just standin' there hopin' your guys are lousy shots while I wait to live through your turn, I'm doin' stuff too. When one of your guys spends an Order to take an action, every one of my guys who has line of sight (called Line of Fire in the game) to the actin' figure gets one free Reactive Order in response. What this means is when your guy spends an Order to fire his HMG four times (HMG fires four shots) at my guys (4 shots at one target, or one shot at 4 targets, or 2 and 2) each of my guys with LoF can shoot back, or dive for cover, or hack the electronics in your armor and immobilize you if you're in Heavy armor, or some other single short skill. The point is stuff is always goin' on for both players. Now for those of you who were thinkin' back in the previous paragraph how cool it sounds to take two badass guys with your points consider, 2 guys means three Orders per turn against my 12 guys with 13 orders per turn, and when you spend one order to shoot your 4 shot HMG I'll probaby have 5-7 guys with LOF who'll each get one shot back/throw grenades at you. Granted your guy will be tougher and harder to kill, but that's what I brought the grenades for. ;D And on my turn I'll have 13 more chances. ;D This is also why it's not wise to pump all your Orders in one guy as a battle plan.
With all the shootin' on your turn and shootin' on my turn it does tend to be a very deadly game for players who don't take advantage of cover. :P Cover is not only a negative die modifier to be hit but also a positive die modifier for armor saves. Cover is your friend.
Hackin' is a great concept in this game. Is your opponent comin' at you with Heavy Infantry (man-sized powered battle armor suited troops) or Remotes (think Tachicomas from Ghost in the Shell)? Well spend an Order if they're within range and hack them (make a die roll) to Immobilize them, he'll have to spend an Order on his turn to reboot the system (make a die roll) to regain control and be able to use 'em. Now if he's usin' TAGs ( Tactical Armored Gear, those twice the size of a man battle suits you see in anime) on you, once you successfully hack and Immobilize it, hack it again and use it as your own. ;D ;D What? Are those guided missiles bein' fired at your guys? Hack 'em and redirect them off target. ;D Think he might have Airborne drop troops who will land behind your lines on a future turn, hack his transport and force them to all land in the same spot with a greatly increased chance of missin' their target. Or other stuff. Don't forget your hacker can oppose enemy hackers who try to do any of this stuff to you. >:(
Yes Infinity can be a short and bloody game, at first. But once you get a few game under your belt, you will find it is a game that is very different from any other game you've played, in a really good way. In an early game I played with a friend we were playin' a 250 AP battle to force retreat of the others army (when an army looses 60% of its points it retreats off the board). After a few turn he had lost 6 guys I had lost 2, I could see he was gettin' a little bit bummed as he appeared to be doin' so poorly. So we stopped and counted up our losses, and there was only a 9 point difference, we couldn't believe how close it was. Two turns later we checked totals again, he could win by takin' out one of my guys, I would have to take out 2 of his to win, (my guys were more pricey point wise, and I could only get line of sight on his two cheapest guys). I ended up winnin' with a difference of 13 points of troops lost per side. A pretty balanced game in my book.
UPDATE - There is a first expansion/second rulebook "Human Sphere" with new troops, equipment, and rules. There is also a new Faction and new ways to play your old armies, for example you can now play an exclusively Japanese army made up with a limited choice of minis from the Yu Jing army list but with a new army wide benefit to make up for the choice limitations.
I hope this helps the curious.
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Hi there,
Have some urban war stuff, mostly VASA and i was involved with the play testing, but only problem is that Urban Mammoth haven't released any new miniatures for over a year :-[. If your going to play, play the strike team skirmish level, played in about an hour.
Thanks Jeff
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VOID the same as Warzone? How? One game used a Move-Shoot-Assault system whereas the other uses an action-based system. T
yeah and what could you do with the 3 Actions in Warzone?Move,shoot,assault lol
the Rules for "giving Orders","gone prone"and their Game effect were exactly the same and the Fact that Mr Peter Flannery himself worked for both Games ;) Just my two Cents, dont feel pissed Pal,iam a Spawnie myself ( Yes Issue 10!)
@ sasori
thx for the Quick Infinty Rundown!
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The biggest problem is that the rules seem to be rather complex and without someone to either guide you through it or a good battle report that goes into the detail of how things work I don't really feel like getting my self together and beating myself through it
That's exactly how I felt, but over here in Spain there seem to be a lot of people who play it and it really does help to have someone walk you through a demo game,or three.
The you tube videos corvus have been posting of late are a good way to get a feel for the basic mechanics.
With the system, I reckon the best thing you can do I pay a game or two with just the basic troop types, not using any of the special abilities at all, as it's really only all the special abilities that complicate things, the actual rules are fairly simple.
One thing I did find which annoys me is the way things are organised in the rules books, the way they've set out the rules is not particularly logical IMO, and some info is quite hard to locate, it isn't where you'd expect it to be. However the forums are very active and a good place to get clarification.
Infinity is very nice and original, but also very fast and deadly. Games can be ended by turn 2 if you don't go heavy on terrain. That's one of my gripes with the game: you really need a lot (and by that, I mean A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT) of scenery to let the game shine very well. With too few scenery, there are too many firing lanes and you'll have too many reactive shooting. This can really lead to a fast and boring game. If you add in loads and loads of scenery, the game becomes fantastic!................ ................
The game works that each model gives you an order to spend (so 5 models = 5 orders). You can give a model one or more orders from your order pool. Yes, this means you can take a huge Landmate and a load of cheap lackeys. The lackeys stay behind in cover to provide covering fire and the Landmate stomps through the field with all of the orders.
I'd say this is pretty spot on.
You need lots of scenery for a good game, but having a few dead zones that are suicide to cross can also be interesting.
100% agree about alocating all your orders to the powerful troops, we're thinking about limiting the maximum number of orders that can be allocated to any one model.
What are your house rules Malebolgia?
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Is it me, or do the GOT models look like they borrowed a lot of the look and feel from Infinity too? I always saw VOID as the original, and Infinity as somewhat of a copy of VOID, and then the GOT models sure look like they were inspired by Infinity.
One should bear in mind G.O.T was written over 12 years ago as was some of the concept artwork; so it pre-dates Infinity in terms of concept (afaik), however The CB Infinity models are amongst the best sci-fi models out there, bar none, so it wouldn't be a bad thing to be inspired by them and I certainly admire them (CB/Infinity): sculpts, design and painting & presentation. Doing an ultra-scifi range and not making it compatible with Infinity figures would be, imo, just plain dumb and G.O.T. sizes were deliberately chosen to fit in with Infinity figures... although the key design element was strict adherence to proportional body dimensions. Regardless of the success of the Rules (which are very good but weapon-complex) the figures are widespread and popular in their own right.
Having said that, "Inspired by Infinity"? I think that is misleading as it suggests derivative stature...which is different to the actual case. That's a bit like my daughter thinking the latest version of "Come up and see me" is a re-release of the 'original' Duran-Duran version of the song... it indicates a lack of research!!! Have you never heard of Steve Harley?
The google term you need to gen-up on WGG is "Shirow Masamune"...then watch and read some manga/anime.
Try watching Applessed, Appleseed Ex-Machina and at least the two SAC series of GITS (1st + 2nd gig). Then you'll know A (caps, bold) inspiration for both is Masamune... add a bit of Cowboy Bebop, Bubblegum Crisis, Evangelion..its a long list...but then you have to add in a long list of hard and semi-soft Sci-fi for both Infinity and G.O.T. You might want to check with CB on their inspirational sources, but from reading their posts on their forum, and seeing their figures, some sources are obvious, some less so. Masamune is a big one though and openly acknowledged by CB, and it’s a big source of inspiration for G.O.T. also.
Having said that, so is 20+ years involvement in video-gaming and that forms a very long list of inspirational sources but of-note HALO and Mass Effect, the latter especially so as the technological standpoint is closer than that of HALO.
However, in the case of G.O.T. you've seen a small part of one faction so far, the one most similar in tech~ to the Infinity figures.... so perhaps waiting to see other designs and factions might be worthwhile before sealing us permanently into the current pigeon hole you've assigned us.
Asking the source never harms either. :)
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oh, and Vexille isnt too bad either. ;)
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I've certainly tried to watch some Anime...but just didn't quite 'get it'. Since I love the look of the GOT stuff (as well as the Infinity stuff), maybe I better give it another try. Seems like I'm missing out on some fantastic material!
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I've certainly tried to watch some Anime...but just didn't quite 'get it'. Since I love the look of the GOT stuff (as well as the Infinity stuff), maybe I better give it another try. Seems like I'm missing out on some fantastic material!
Well it can be a bit odd.... certainly most of the really good stuff doesnt suck you in iwth the first episode.
Cowboy BeBop is a good example: plain animation and gives you nothing to act as a foundation in their 'verse...it's not until you get half a dozen episodes in under your belt that you start seeing the deep character backgrounds and getting a feel for the 'verse.
The same is true of the GITS:SAC series...which are probably my favourite, and the best of, the current crop of work.
For action though - Appleseed, and especially Ex-Machina. Appleseed has the better story, but the animation in Ex-Machina, and especially the opening gun-battle in the Cathedral - well THAT is pure Infinity/G.O.T imo.
If I had to pick just one thing to show somebody, to give them a feel: I'd show them the Ex-Machina Cathedral battle.
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try this in fact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZkag7M_i5A
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Ok, awesome...I'll try some of those out.
I guess I tried Akira, which was bizarre, (but cool) And Spirited Away, which doesn't quite fall into the same category, but has that wonderful Japanese weirdness.
I've always been hung up on the art style...I'm an old school comic book fan, so I think I'm being biased there.
Will def. give them a go.
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try this in fact:
:o :o :o
Nothing to complain about there! OOOOO I'm all excited now, Like I found a secret closet!
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One should bear in mind G.O.T was written over 12 years ago as was some of the concept artwork; so it pre-dates Infinity in terms of concept (afaik), however The CB Infinity models are amongst the best sci-fi models out there, bar none, so it wouldn't be a bad thing to be inspired by them and I certainly admire them (CB/Infinity): sculpts, design and painting & presentation. Doing an ultra-scifi range and not making it compatible with Infinity figures would be, imo, just plain dumb and G.O.T. sizes were deliberately chosen to fit in with Infinity figures... although the key design element was strict adherence to proportional body dimensions. Regardless of the success of the Rules (which are very good but weapon-complex) the figures are widespread and popular in their own right.
Having said that, "Inspired by Infinity"? I think that is misleading as it suggests derivative stature...which is different to the actual case. That's a bit like my daughter thinking the latest version of "Come up and see me" is a re-release of the 'original' Duran-Duran version of the song... it indicates a lack of research!!! Have you never heard of Steve Harley?
The google term you need to gen-up on WGG is "Shirow Masamune"...then watch and read some manga/anime.
Try watching Applessed, Appleseed Ex-Machina and at least the two SAC series of GITS (1st + 2nd gig). Then you'll know A (caps, bold) inspiration for both is Masamune... add a bit of Cowboy Bebop, Bubblegum Crisis, Evangelion..its a long list...but then you have to add in a long list of hard and semi-soft Sci-fi for both Infinity and G.O.T. You might want to check with CB on their inspirational sources, but from reading their posts on their forum, and seeing their figures, some sources are obvious, some less so. Masamune is a big one though and openly acknowledged by CB, and it’s a big source of inspiration for G.O.T. also.
Having said that, so is 20+ years involvement in video-gaming and that forms a very long list of inspirational sources but of-note HALO and Mass Effect, the latter especially so as the technological standpoint is closer than that of HALO.
However, in the case of G.O.T. you've seen a small part of one faction so far, the one most similar in tech~ to the Infinity figures.... so perhaps waiting to see other designs and factions might be worthwhile before sealing us permanently into the current pigeon hole you've assigned us.
Asking the source never harms either. :)
Based on what you have at present Infinity is the closest models to compare GOT to, and fact remains, Infinity was out first before GOT models right? Regardless of how old the concept is, they were first. So it's only natural to guess that GOT may have borrowed some things from Infinity.
I never said for a fact you ripped off Infinity either, nor was that my intention. I just said it sure looks like GOT may have been inspired by Infinity. They certainly look totally compatible by design.
Thank you for the background info tho. They look like amazing models indeed, and I wish you luck with GOT.
Ironically I really don't like anime all that much, but I find myself liking the look of Heavy Gear, Infinity and your GOT models. Well I also have to admit, I did like the original Akira and Macross/Robotech cartoons of the 80s too, but I can't stand much of the newer stuff which makes up most of the current crop of what is called anime today tho.
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Yeah, Ex Machina rocks! Terrific movie and great to get a G.O.T./Infinity vibe going 8)
@hubbabubba: The thing that fixed most of our gripes was to reduce the maximum amount of orders to a model's addition to the order pool + 1. So basically, models can take up to two orders per turn and Lt.'s up to three orders. That stops the T.A.G.'s from stomping around and firing their enormous HMG's around at everything.
Another one is not really a house rule, but we go low on special weapons. Usually we have 1-2 HMG's or maybe a Missile Launcher...but no Flamethrowers (these are sick) or GL's. We saw them in action once and knew these weren't for us. It was absurd to see a guy using all orders to fire a GL with one model, killing loads of enemies without getting into the open. Yuck. In addition, we try to keep the superexpensive specialists to a minimum. I absolutely adore the sculpt of Hac Tao with Missile Launcher (link (http://alien.kinslord.net/Imagenes/Infinity/HacTao.jpeg))...but she's insane! Having a model with TO Camo, good Armor and a Rocket Launcher together is really harsh and can lead to broken matchups.
@Dr.Falkenhayn: Not pissed, just really surprised :). I agree that I-Kore had Target Games written all over them, but that was a big plus for us (as gamers). We loved Warzone...too bad UWZ died and wasn't continued in a form :(
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*stuff*
I think you missed the point rather:
I'm sure CB are as open to answering questions on inspirations as I am, you just have to ask...which helps cut down on all the guesswork.
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I think you missed the point rather:
I'm sure CB are as open to answering questions on inspirations as I am, you just have to ask...which helps cut down on all the guesswork.
Point taken. Thanks
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:o :o :o
Nothing to complain about there! OOOOO I'm all excited now, Like I found a secret closet!
the first Appleseed CG movie suffers a bit from Cowboy Andy armpits, but the second one is top notch - John Woo even got his obligatory dove shot in....
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Appleseed = great
Ghost in the Shell = :o
I just wish for Infinity they'd release some sort of stat builder so you could have a go at fielding Kusanagi and Batou.
Duncan
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Any way, in terms of the games Urban War and Infinity, I never heard much about them online. Do most just think they're bad games, or is everyone just too busy with so many other titles, that those are a few that have slipped through the cracks, and never made it to anyone's radar?
I think one of the reasons that you don't hear much about Infinity on non infinity forums is that it's a fairly complex game (when you take all of the interactions into account) and accordingly isn't that great for casual play (even more so when you add in the large amount of suitable terrain needed) - I know a number of players, but they don't play many other games, on line they pretty much stick to dedicated forums.
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Interesting, over here we only play it as a casual game. TBH, I think it stinks as a competetive game...too many exploitable elements in it. You can easily get a strong powercreep going.
I agree that it's fairly complex and the writing isn't fantastic. There are a lot of special rules and abilities going on and it can be a real problem finding the location of certain rules. But once you get the hang of these, it works well.
For the terrain we found a forest/jungle table works very well, but don't use Infinity's rules for woods as these are really stupid. We use the same rules as in Warhammer: you can see up to 2" in(to) a forest, but you can't see the other side of the forest, no matter how thin it is. This way, you can throw lots of blocking scenery on the table with small forests that block firing lanes. You can easily get tactical firefights...and who doesn't want to fight around mayan temples in a dark and brooding jungle 8)
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Interesting, over here we only play it as a casual game. TBH, I think it stinks as a competetive game...too many exploitable elements in it. You can easily get a strong powercreep going.
I agree - to express myself more clearly - In saying it's not a great casual game I mean that it's not exactly something that you can break out to play a quick game of once a month (like SOBH) without blundering badly over exactly what an X visor does, or if you can attack a model with Martial Arts level 2 from behind or such like.
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Agree 100% mate. We'll be playing next week again and I wonder how much we'll be flipping through the book again :D
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I think one of the reasons that you don't hear much about Infinity on non infinity forums is that it's a fairly complex game (when you take all of the interactions into account) and accordingly isn't that great for casual play (even more so when you add in the large amount of suitable terrain needed) - I know a number of players, but they don't play many other games, on line they pretty much stick to dedicated forums.
I read through the rules via the free .pdf and I was feeling somewhat the same way. It didn't seem like one to easily pick up and run with, and it lends itself best to lots of terrain. On the flipside it does seem quite in-depth and there's a lot to like about it, that is once you can figure out what to do.
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The complexity isnt in the Rules though - the rules are relatively straightforward. The complexity is in the weapons and skills; the fact that there are so many different weapons, ammunitions types and skills.
You can, if you want to first learn just the fundamental rules, chose simplistic figures with simplistic weapons which will result in a more easily grasped, and quicker, game.
And it is easily understood and gamed.
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The reason why many gamers view it as complex is probably down to the die itself. T20 isn't really standard when a T10 is considered exotic in some review :) So all the sudden the players have a far larger scale of numbers to remember than the normal 1-6 or 1-10.
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The reason why many gamers view it as complex is probably down to the die itself. T20 isn't really standard when a T10 is considered exotic in some review :) So all the sudden the players have a far larger scale of numbers to remember than the normal 1-6 or 1-10.
I really don't think that using dice with more sides makes a game more complicated to play. I NEVER bother learning any scales/tables by heart, anyway, I just keep references readily at hand.
I actually never burden my memory with anything but the most basic mechanics of a game - I have far too many different rulesets to be able to tell all the special stuff apart, comprehensive rosters is the way to go. Plus, I never trust gamers who claim to know every rule of a game by heart - I have heard too many frightening tales of beardy players to do so. If a quirky situation arises, I'll much rather break out the rulebook to make sure, we do it as intended, not picking up any bad habits along the way.
Personally, I MUCH prefer games that use d10 or d20 over d6, because even stacking modifiers do not tilt the possible outcome in a totally unrealistic way. Needless to say, I think percentage dice are the best solution for generating random results, but for some reason they never really caught on.
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A D20 is a kind of percentage die anyway. It's just they are in 5% chunks. That's how the RPG Pendragon uses them (skill levels range from 0-20, if you roll under you pass your check, if you roll spot on it is a critical, and you can have opposed rolls for combat or skill contests of other kinds). I always liked that system.
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Yeah, a D20 is actually quite simple and even more so than a D6 (or 2D6) system. Odds are much more easy to calculate with the 5% increments. I really like the D20...it allows for more variety in modifiers without it breaking the system.
@Antenociti: Partially agree. The basic rules are not always very clear IMO. We had to read the part on Orders and ARO's several times and play it out before we understood the timing. It's one of those books where the language almost seems like a technical read.
In addition, the rules are all over the book. For example, the different type of orders are explained after all of the rules...not very logical. Last night I first read through all the main rules and was frustrated I didn't find the Dodge order. After I skipt to the next part I saw them. Odd.
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@ Arganor
You are the first person, besides myself, I've heard admit to not trying to memorize charts. I've always felt it was not that big of a deal to just remember where they were & reference them and be sure you're not making a mistake. As I'm slowly getting Infinity to grow in my area I'm starting to encounter a migration of GW & PP players who "remember" all their charts & stats and never look at anything during the game. I find it somewhat uncomfortable to trust some of them but it's the way they play around here so I am trying to get used to it.
Also when answering rules questions on-line I always quote from the rulebook with page & paragraph rather than just answering them. I'm not one to easily buy a "but, some guy on the Forum said..." answer to a rules question on anything I can't find an answer to.
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I can only speak for Infinity, and many of Sasori's comments are spot-on.
I would like to add some of my thoughts on the models though:
I'm not really into animé or Japanese animation/stories all that much (I'm pretty much a complete n00b in fact), but I love the Infinity artwork and style. Many of the sculptors are ex-Rackham, and very highly regarded for their fine work. Studio McVey has hired a number of them for for it's own limited edition figures, and their works speaks for itself. The figures are slightly long-limbed, but otherwise naturally scaled 30mm to the eyes. This makes them seem rather delicate and graceful, and along with action poses, helps to make them seem more alive than the usual static model poses we're more familiar with.
The level and size of fine detail in the metal Infinity models is usually only seen in resin. Some of the very small parts have reasonable flash, but none of my figures had serious mould lines or miscasts anywhere (and I own a whole faction). The casting quality is generally very high (as it would have to be to cast a helmet aerial 0.5mm x 2mm!).
The models come in a varied number of parts, and the sculpting and moulding priority is clearly the free/naturalistic poses, and not ease of assembly. I don't mind this, but it is very clear that the models are intended to be aesthetic first and robust last (within reason). To give them fair credit though, the newer models' parts are more practical where possible - for example, spinal aerials come on a strip that plugs in instead of being individual parts. I imagine this costs a little more, as it requires the sculptor to account for this sort of detail during sculpting rather than the mouldmaker just cutting a model once it's all done.
These physical aspects make the models more expensive - the more expensive sculptor (I presume!), more moulds (because more parts), more careful casting (due to the small parts and super-fine mouldlines) and smaller runs (I doubt CB sell anywhere near the volume of the bigger manufacturers of any figure).
I personally am happy with all of these issues. I don't mind the extra assembly work or costs when I consider the final product. Nor do I mind when I consider how many models I'm likely to have overall. As far I'm concerned, I like having a game that cares more about the beauty of the figures than the ease of making them!
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The level and size of fine detail in the metal Infinity models is usually only seen in resin.
hmm, I have to disagree here on technical terms: metal (figure-metal) simply cannot show the same detail as resin: it isnt possible: different metals can hold more detail (such as silver) but the white-metals used infigure casting just isnt capable of holding the level of detail that resin can.
So whilst i agree that the Infinity figures have very good detail levels for metal figures, there is no way they can be compared to the crispness and level of detail achievable in resin...for no other reason than it being techncially impossible.
This is one reason why you tend to see a lot of resin-cast figures in "show" figures as opposed to gaming figures - the higher detail capture capability of resin gives more detail and crsipness to paint, but lacks the durability of metal. The metal has the durability but loses the crispness and level of detail of resin.
As to the impact on sculpting - putting in higher levels of details on greens to be cast in metal is a waste of time; which is why sculptors will ask you what the intended medium (casting) will be: if its resin they can do more detail that will be replicated in the end product - if it is metal then a certain level of detail will be lost, sculpting it in the first place is a waste of time and money.
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hmm, I have to disagree here on technical terms: metal (figure-metal) simply cannot show the same detail as resin: it isnt possible: different metals can hold more detail (such as silver) but the white-metals used infigure casting just isnt capable of holding the level of detail that resin can.
So whilst i agree that the Infinity figures have very good detail levels for metal figures, there is no way they can be compared to the crispness and level of detail achievable in resin...for no other reason than it being techncially impossible.
This is one reason why you tend to see a lot of resin-cast figures in "show" figures as opposed to gaming figures - the higher detail capture capability of resin gives more detail and crsipness to paint, but lacks the durability of metal. The metal has the durability but loses the crispness and level of detail of resin.
As to the impact on sculpting - putting in higher levels of details on greens to be cast in metal is a waste of time; which is why sculptors will ask you what the intended medium (casting) will be: if its resin they can do more detail that will be replicated in the end product - if it is metal then a certain level of detail will be lost, sculpting it in the first place is a waste of time and money.
That's probably the best explanation I've heard on the topic. Well done Jed. I just wish resin models we're heavier. My experience is that resin is almost always lighter than plastic models, when dealing with single models. Although resin terrain does seem heavier, and more durable. I guess it's all about what resin used too tho right?
My issue with resin is most single models feel like a feather in-hand. Plus most of the single 28mm-30mm+ scale models I've seen are somewhat brittle compared to metal and plastic. For instance one of my twin girls knocked a single man-sized 28mm resin model off a ledge, and the arm cracked right off like nothing. With no weight to it, it shouldn't have hit with much of an impact, or at least you'd think.
For a super painter I'd imagine resin is definitely the way to go, but for durability, I prefer metal or plastic overall.
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I guess durabiltiy isn't an issue for me...I mean I buy these damn minis, and then rarely touch them afterwards.....(lead mountain then white metal mountain, plastic mountain, now resin mountains? UGH! I should start a ski resort.... ;D
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@ Arganor
You are the first person, besides myself, I've heard admit to not trying to memorize charts. I've always felt it was not that big of a deal to just remember where they were & reference them and be sure you're not making a mistake.
Believe me, I have much more important things to burden my little grey cells with than charts lol
In most parts of life, I strive to only memorize things that are necessary for getting things to function (that - and an incredible amount of totally useless trivia... that stuff seems to seep through all mental defenses... ), leaving things easily looked up out of the equation.
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resins vary tremendously in strength and durability, not too mention cost.
cheap, bulk polyester resins, often padded out with fillers, tend to dominate the scenery/terrain market.
Figures tend to be in more expensive polyurethane resins, but the main condition of use is often dictated by pot-life and cure-time, rather than expressly strength.
Resin, when broken, is often incredibly easy to fix with super-thin CA leaving no visual mark at all (unless it shatters); so there are pluses and minuses.
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resins vary tremendously in strength and durability, not too mention cost.
cheap, bulk polyester resins, often padded out with fillers, tend to dominate the scenery/terrain market.
Figures tend to be in more expensive polyurethane resins, but the main condition of use is often dictated by pot-life and cure-time, rather than expressly strength.
Resin, when broken, is often incredibly easy to fix with super-thin CA leaving no visual mark at all (unless it shatters); so there are pluses and minuses.
Yes I was able to fix the one that broke, because it was a clean break, so you're right about that. I just hate that I need to repaint it now to fix the chip missing out of the arm.
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hmm, I have to disagree here on technical terms: metal (figure-metal) simply cannot show the same detail as resin: it isnt possible: different metals can hold more detail (such as silver) but the white-metals used infigure casting just isnt capable of holding the level of detail that resin can.
So whilst i agree that the Infinity figures have very good detail levels for metal figures, there is no way they can be compared to the crispness and level of detail achievable in resin...for no other reason than it being techncially impossible.
This is one reason why you tend to see a lot of resin-cast figures in "show" figures as opposed to gaming figures - the higher detail capture capability of resin gives more detail and crsipness to paint, but lacks the durability of metal. The metal has the durability but loses the crispness and level of detail of resin.
As to the impact on sculpting - putting in higher levels of details on greens to be cast in metal is a waste of time; which is why sculptors will ask you what the intended medium (casting) will be: if its resin they can do more detail that will be replicated in the end product - if it is metal then a certain level of detail will be lost, sculpting it in the first place is a waste of time and money.
You are of course completely right - I do know this, and I think many other people here do too, but your explanation is still very good and clear.
However, what I was getting at in my post was that the level of detail and the finesse of that detail was unusual in most metal models that are available, and for most people that sort of detail would be closer to what they might expect from a resin model rather than a plastic or a metal model. I did not mean to imply that metal models were capable of holding the same level of detail that resin equivalents can.
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As for the rules and gameplay, I do find it very well balanced and the core rules are both quite straightforward and intuitive. The reaction system seems (and actually is) quite brutal. The play complexity is actually in the tactics rather than the core rules, and bad tactics will lose you a game almost every time.
Because of the reaction system, very heavy terrain presence is imperative. It also helps to balance out the different troop types and stops heavy weapons becoming too Death Star-like.
As others have said though, the special abilities and equipment are where the real rules complexity comes in, and it is easy to get misled into thinking that they are what the game revolves around. This is the part of the game that requires quite a lot of memory-work too, especially as they are distributed throughout the book and there is no index or cross-referencing within the rules themselves.
Equipment-wise, some of the rules and their examples are not too clear. They make sense when they are explained to you, and quite often the common sense answer is the correct one. But between the lack of cross-reference to other relevant rules, and the fact that it is translated material, it can be hard to appreciate the effects of some of the equipment rules.
For example, most guns fire more than one shot, and many have more than one ammo type. Certain weapons allow you to choose more specialist ammo from their list at a reduced rate of fire, and even combine the abilities of more than one ammo type at a further reduced rate of fire. In reactive fire though, you can only fire once - you can choose an available special ammo type if you want to, but you cannot combine ammo types like you can when it is your active turn. Rules like this are fairly straight forward, but are not all presented together in the book and takes people a few passes before they understand it.
Abilities are more complicated again, because they have levels. Each ascending level affords the models all the rules of the previous levels too. So for example, an ability like models entering play as drop troops has a number of levels; but higher levels must determine how they enter play and then use the relevant rules for that level only. So a model might be able to jump into the middle of the table, or be allowed to come in from a table edge if it has a higher level of the ability. Other abilities like Martial Arts at the higher levels can cancel out the abilities other models have at lower levels.
This interaction between the rules, abilities and equipment can get confusing fast. It also doesn't help that whilst the force composition is important, it isn't quite the be-all that it is in 40k or Warmachine. Sure, some stuff can be hard for some armies to counter, but good tactics can see you through a lot of situations. This tends to trip up many folks who are more familiar with those sorts of mainstream games, as it requires a different approach.
I also see a lot of people complaining about a few common tactics, but again many of these come down to how you play:
Having cheap troops to feed a TAG (the battlesuits in the game that are effectively light tank equivalents) is a common tactic that many players struggle to counter. The solution to these is usually to distract the Tag with a worthy target and then clear out the cheap troops instead. On its own and starved of orders, the TAG ceases to be much of a threat. All the factions have suitable cheap-troop hunters too. Don't forget that volume of fire can also score lucky hits; most people seem to forget about tactics like Co-ordinated Actions or Supressing Fire, but factor in Critical Hits and that volume of fire will wear down the TAG.
A similar tactic can be had for cheaper with a small number of elite troops instead of the TAG. This is also hard to counter if you're not used to it, and is a very common tactic. Again, targeting the cheap troops hidden at the back (AKA 'Cheerleaders') starves the 'Rambo' models of orders. Many troops also carry all kinds of equipment that is a serious threat to Rambo models (electromagnetic weapons, adhesive launchers, AT weapons, etc), so make good use of them. Also, you can always counter-Rambo your opponent to level the playing field again.
Many forces that go heavy in one or two aspects are usually not balanced in other areas. A balanced force and good tactics will usually win out over such a list, especially if you don't play to their favour and keep them on their toes.
The new Sectorial lists have a number of differences to the main lists that are worth keeping in mind too. Firstly, these are essentially subfaction lists. Secondly, the availability restrictions are often increased to counter the more restricted troop variety. Thirdly, some models gain the ability to be in a Fire Team when in a Sectorial list. The Fire Team is sort of like a loose squad, but where each order spent affects all the models in the team. The size of the team also gives it various buffs depending on the number of troops. Fire teams can be heavy infantry (very expensive to do points-wise!) or more usually light troops that are normally cheerleaders in other lists. For the light troops, Fire Teams make them deadly!
Rounding out my ramble here are some notes on force composition:
Each player can choose as many troops as they can afford for the points. Models are split into Combat Teams, and each team can be up to ten models strong. Most players use a single team of ten or fewer models.
Each model contributes an order to its team's order pool, which limits all teams to a maximum of 10 orders. One model in the force will be the Lieutenant who is the force leader. There is only one Lieutenant per force, not one per team! The Lieutenant gets an extra order that they can use in addition to any other(s) from the pool - if the order goes unspent, then another model in the team may use it to automatically pass a morale check if they are called to make one in your opponent's turn.
Each model costs a number of points, and you choose up the total as with most other games. For every 50 points, you also get a single support point. So in a typical 250 point game, you will have 5 support points to spend as well. Some weapon options and troop types require that you spend support points in addition to the normal points. For example, a basic trooper with an assault rifle might cost around 11 points, but if you want to equip it with a heavy machine gun, it will cost about 20 points plus 1.5 support weapon points.
The number models of one type that may be selected depends on the availability of the troop type. Line infantry are your basic footsoldiers, and are typically unlimited. More elite versions of these might have big availabilities (like 4+). Then you get more specialised troops like heavy infantry, and these are usually limited to three or fewer (often fewer). Each troop type has a number of standard weapon/equipment loadouts, and you choose what weapon fit you want when you select a troop from that type. Different fits cost different amounts of points and support points.
Many troop types have the option to be upgraded to a Lieutenant, and you must upgrade one model in your force to Lieutenant. No more, no less! Some troops are better suited (background wise, not model-wise) to leading your faction's forces, and these will often cost you the same points as the basic model of that type. Occasionally, some Lieutenant options give you extra support weapon points if you include them, but more usually 'unsuitable' Lieutenant options cost you support points to field.
The dual points system helps to limit powerful equipment and troops beyond just having troop class restrictions (like the 40k Force Organisation Chart does), and the combination of the dual points systems and the restricted availability of troop types makes it quite hard to build a cheesy force. The only two good rules of thumb when list building is that you should try and use up all/most of your support points if you can, and that you should try and avoid forces with fewer than seven models if possible. This is because support points unlock better troops and equipment and because you need enough troops to survive a couple of casualties but still have enough orders left to do something useful with.
In conclusion then, it is a difficult game to master, and new players will benefit greatly from being taught the game rather than having to learn it through reading the rules themselves. The game is based at a strictly skirmish level, and the rules not only reflect this level of combat very well, but also allow models to carry out most actions that you could imagine (including being able to alert friendly models of enemies that they might not be aware of, going prone, etc). A lot of terrain is required for the best game experience, and much of that terrain needs to be solid to cut down on being able to draw lots of long lines of sight (so not like the old Necromunda terrain). The factions are well balanced and all the force choices have good reasons for being selected. The game makes it hard to build cheesy forces, and rewards balanced choices and good tactics. The only thing missing is a selection of decent scenarios (which is a gripe of mine)!
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...The only thing missing is a selection of decent scenarios (which is a gripe of mine)!
That's a gripe of every Infinity player. :?
Great detailed write-up by the way.