Two games I don't hear a lot about Urban War and Infinity?

[Armchair]

Interesting, over here we only play it as a casual game. TBH, I think it stinks as a competetive game...too many exploitable elements in it. You can easily get a strong powercreep going.

I agree - to express myself more clearly - In saying it's not a great casual game I mean that it's not exactly something that you can break out to play a quick game of once a month (like SOBH) without blundering badly over exactly what an X visor does, or if you can attack a model with Martial Arts level 2 from behind or such like.

[Malebolgia]

Agree 100% mate. We'll be playing next week again and I wonder how much we'll be flipping through the book again

[WarGameGuru]

I think one of the reasons that you don't hear much about Infinity on non infinity forums is that it's a fairly complex game (when you take all of the interactions into account) and accordingly isn't that great for casual play (even more so when you add in the large amount of suitable terrain needed) - I know a number of players, but they don't play many other games, on line they pretty much stick to dedicated forums.

 

I read through the rules via the free .pdf and I was feeling somewhat the same way. It didn't seem like one to easily pick up and run with, and it lends itself best to lots of terrain. On the flipside it does seem quite in-depth and there's a lot to like about it, that is once you can figure out what to do.

[Antenociti]

The complexity isnt in the Rules though - the rules are relatively straightforward. The complexity is in the weapons and skills; the fact that there are so many different weapons, ammunitions types and skills.

You can, if you want to first learn just the fundamental rules, chose simplistic figures with simplistic weapons which will result in a more easily grasped, and quicker, game.

And it is easily understood and gamed.

[Centaur_Seducer]

The reason why many gamers view it as complex is probably down to the die itself. T20 isn't really standard when a T10 is considered exotic in some review So all the sudden the players have a far larger scale of numbers to remember than the normal 1-6 or 1-10.

[Argonor]

The reason why many gamers view it as complex is probably down to the die itself. T20 isn't really standard when a T10 is considered exotic in some review So all the sudden the players have a far larger scale of numbers to remember than the normal 1-6 or 1-10.

I really don't think that using dice with more sides makes a game more complicated to play. I NEVER bother learning any scales/tables by heart, anyway, I just keep references readily at hand.

I actually never burden my memory with anything but the most basic mechanics of a game - I have far too many different rulesets to be able to tell all the special stuff apart, comprehensive rosters is the way to go. Plus, I never trust gamers who claim to know every rule of a game by heart - I have heard too many frightening tales of beardy players to do so. If a quirky situation arises, I'll much rather break out the rulebook to make sure, we do it as intended, not picking up any bad habits along the way.

Personally, I MUCH prefer games that use d10 or d20 over d6, because even stacking modifiers do not tilt the possible outcome in a totally unrealistic way. Needless to say, I think percentage dice are the best solution for generating random results, but for some reason they never really caught on.

[Plynkes]

A D20 is a kind of percentage die anyway. It's just they are in 5% chunks. That's how the RPG Pendragon uses them (skill levels range from 0-20, if you roll under you pass your check, if you roll spot on it is a critical, and you can have opposed rolls for combat or skill contests of other kinds). I always liked that system.

[Malebolgia]

Yeah, a D20 is actually quite simple and even more so than a D6 (or 2D6) system. Odds are much more easy to calculate with the 5% increments. I really like the D20...it allows for more variety in modifiers without it breaking the system.

@Antenociti: Partially agree. The basic rules are not always very clear IMO. We had to read the part on Orders and ARO's several times and play it out before we understood the timing. It's one of those books where the language almost seems like a technical read.
In addition, the rules are all over the book. For example, the different type of orders are explained after all of the rules...not very logical. Last night I first read through all the main rules and was frustrated I didn't find the Dodge order. After I skipt to the next part I saw them. Odd.

[sasori]

@ Arganor

You are the first person, besides myself, I've heard admit to not trying to memorize charts. I've always felt it was not that big of a deal to just remember where they were & reference them and be sure you're not making a mistake. As I'm slowly getting Infinity to grow in my area I'm starting to encounter a migration of GW & PP players who "remember" all their charts & stats and never look at anything during the game. I find it somewhat uncomfortable to trust some of them but it's the way they play around here so I am trying to get used to it.

Also when answering rules questions on-line I always quote from the rulebook with page & paragraph rather than just answering them. I'm not one to easily buy a "but, some guy on the Forum said..." answer to a rules question on anything I can't find an answer to. 

[Major_Gilbear]

I can only speak for Infinity, and many of Sasori's comments are spot-on.

I would like to add some of my thoughts on the models though:

I'm not really into animé or Japanese animation/stories all that much (I'm pretty much a complete n00b in fact), but I love the Infinity artwork and style. Many of the sculptors are ex-Rackham, and very highly regarded for their fine work. Studio McVey has hired a number of them for for it's own limited edition figures, and their works speaks for itself. The figures are slightly long-limbed, but otherwise naturally scaled 30mm to the eyes. This makes them seem rather delicate and graceful, and along with action poses, helps to make them seem more alive than the usual static model poses we're more familiar with.

The level and size of fine detail in the metal Infinity models is usually only seen in resin. Some of the very small parts have reasonable flash, but none of my figures had serious mould lines or miscasts anywhere (and I own a whole faction). The casting quality is generally very high (as it would have to be to cast a helmet aerial 0.5mm x 2mm!).

The models come in a varied number of parts, and the sculpting and moulding priority is clearly the free/naturalistic poses, and not ease of assembly. I don't mind this, but it is very clear that the models are intended to be aesthetic first and robust last (within reason). To give them fair credit though, the newer models' parts are more practical where possible - for example, spinal aerials come on a strip that plugs in instead of being individual parts. I imagine this costs a little more, as it requires the sculptor to account for this sort of detail during sculpting rather than the mouldmaker just cutting a model once it's all done.

These physical aspects make the models more expensive - the more expensive sculptor (I presume!), more moulds (because more parts), more careful casting (due to the small parts and super-fine mouldlines) and smaller runs (I doubt CB sell anywhere near the volume of the bigger manufacturers of any figure).

I personally am happy with all of these issues. I don't mind the extra assembly work or costs when I consider the final product. Nor do I mind when I consider how many models I'm likely to have overall. As far I'm concerned, I like having a game that cares more about the beauty of the figures than the ease of making them!

[Antenociti]

The level and size of fine detail in the metal Infinity models is usually only seen in resin.

hmm, I have to disagree here on technical terms: metal (figure-metal) simply cannot show the same detail as resin: it isnt possible: different metals can hold more detail (such as silver) but the white-metals used infigure casting just isnt capable of holding the level of detail that resin can.

So whilst i agree that the Infinity figures have very good detail levels for metal figures, there is no way they can be compared to the crispness and level of detail achievable in resin...for no other reason than it being techncially impossible.

This is one reason why you tend to see a lot of resin-cast figures in "show" figures as opposed to gaming figures - the higher detail capture capability of resin gives more detail and crsipness to paint, but lacks the durability of metal. The metal has the durability but loses the crispness and level of detail of resin.

As to the impact on sculpting - putting in higher levels of details on greens to be cast in metal is a waste of time; which is why sculptors will ask you what the intended medium (casting) will be: if its resin they can do more detail that will be replicated in the end product - if it is metal then a certain level of detail will be lost, sculpting it in the first place is a waste of time and money.

[WarGameGuru]

hmm, I have to disagree here on technical terms: metal (figure-metal) simply cannot show the same detail as resin: it isnt possible: different metals can hold more detail (such as silver) but the white-metals used infigure casting just isnt capable of holding the level of detail that resin can.

So whilst i agree that the Infinity figures have very good detail levels for metal figures, there is no way they can be compared to the crispness and level of detail achievable in resin...for no other reason than it being techncially impossible.

This is one reason why you tend to see a lot of resin-cast figures in "show" figures as opposed to gaming figures - the higher detail capture capability of resin gives more detail and crsipness to paint, but lacks the durability of metal. The metal has the durability but loses the crispness and level of detail of resin.

As to the impact on sculpting - putting in higher levels of details on greens to be cast in metal is a waste of time; which is why sculptors will ask you what the intended medium (casting) will be: if its resin they can do more detail that will be replicated in the end product - if it is metal then a certain level of detail will be lost, sculpting it in the first place is a waste of time and money.

That's probably the best explanation I've heard on the topic. Well done Jed. I just wish resin models we're heavier. My experience is that resin is almost always lighter than plastic models, when dealing with single models.  Although resin terrain does seem heavier, and more durable. I guess it's all about what resin used too tho right?

My issue with resin is most single models feel like a feather in-hand. Plus most of the single 28mm-30mm+ scale models I've seen are somewhat brittle compared to metal and plastic. For instance one of my twin girls knocked a single man-sized 28mm resin model off a ledge, and the arm cracked right off like nothing. With no weight to it, it shouldn't have hit with much of an impact, or at least you'd think.

For a super painter I'd imagine resin is definitely the way to go, but for durability, I prefer metal or plastic overall. 

[supervike]

I guess durabiltiy isn't an issue for me...I mean I buy these damn minis, and then rarely touch them afterwards.....(lead mountain then white metal mountain, plastic mountain, now resin mountains?  UGH!  I should start a ski resort....

[Argonor]

@ Arganor

You are the first person, besides myself, I've heard admit to not trying to memorize charts. I've always felt it was not that big of a deal to just remember where they were & reference them and be sure you're not making a mistake.

Believe me, I have much more important things to burden my little grey cells with than charts 

In most parts of life, I strive to only memorize things that are necessary for getting things to function (that - and an incredible amount of totally useless trivia... that stuff seems to seep through all mental defenses... ), leaving things easily looked up out of the equation.

[Antenociti]

resins vary tremendously in strength and durability, not too mention cost.

cheap, bulk polyester resins, often padded out with fillers, tend to dominate the scenery/terrain market.

Figures tend to be in more expensive polyurethane resins, but the main condition of use is often dictated by pot-life and cure-time, rather than expressly strength.

Resin, when broken, is often incredibly easy to fix with super-thin CA leaving no visual mark at all (unless it shatters); so there are pluses and minuses.