Two games I don't hear a lot about Urban War and Infinity?

[WarGameGuru]

I wanted to pick your brains LAFers. There's two games, both of which have some really nice looking models, but I never hear much talk about the games themselves.

I'm starting to dig into Urban War, which is formerly VOID. The models are really nice, and they remind me a lot of Infinity look-wise, only the Infinity models seem thinner and a bit smaller. Is it me, or do the GOT models look like they borrowed a lot of the look and feel from Infinity too? I always saw VOID as the original, and Infinity as somewhat of a copy of VOID, and then the GOT models sure look like they were inspired by Infinity. Even VOID 1.0 had some really nice models at the time, as I used to own some of the earlier Syntha and lizard fellas from it.

Any way, in terms of the games Urban War and Infinity, I never heard much about them online. Do most just think they're bad games, or is everyone just too busy with so many other titles, that those are a few that have slipped through the cracks, and never made it to anyone's radar?

I just can't believe there's not much out there about the game systems themselves, because what I've seen at a glance, they don't look like terrible games, or games to dislike, and cost-wise I'm not seeing them being any more or any less than other games from companies that make rules and models both either.

They both certainly produce nice sci-fi models. I also think VOID in general has inspired the look and feel of many models that came after it. Does anyone else feel the same in that respect?

[Argonor]

I think the UW minis are great, I'm not too keen on the Infinity ones - a bit too anime in too many strange poses. Fantastic sculpts, but still.

I have an UW Viridian boxed set, started trimming/assembling a few, and even got the female officer primed, but never got around to painting her because of other projects and lack of time. I was going to use her and the Copplestone Female Werewolf Hunter as a couple of die-hard zombiecalyse survivors, but got sidetracked... as with so many other plans 

I did read through the rules for both games, and especially Infinity was interesting, using d10, as far as I remember. But the price and style of the minis put me off. Could've used proxies, of course...

I think Urban War (independent model skirmishing) and Metropolis (unit-based big skirmishes) is as good an alternative to 40K as is to be found out there. I think Urban Mammoth would be much bigger if they were marketing their stuff more aggressively, and not almost entirely through their website. You have to make yourself known to the potential customers before they come to your website, and to get known, you have to have your minis and rules on the shelves out there...

[Westfalia Chris]

I think Void 1.1 (and the whole subsequent franchise) suffered from the poor conduct of its then owners, I-Kore. Furthermore, I think it was hard for another game to carve a niche after the demise of Warzone and the heyday of Warhammer 40k 3rd edition.

I remember running a small Void campaign in the early 2000s, but the stress is on "small".

I liked the rules back then, being sleek and quick to play but not that adaptable (changed my mind on that based on more experience gained over the decade). I have NOT played (or even seen, for that matter) the Urban War incarnation, but if they kept to the strong points, it should be a very decent game. Not too keen on the figures, though, except for some nice "soldiery" ones in the Viridian range (not for quality, rather for style - I only like cartoony when I use it for a specific universe adaptation).

As for Infinity, they do seem to have a rather active community, but tend to be organised in specific fora (the "official" Infinity Forum, and in Germany, o12.) rather than the more "fractioned" general wargamer audience. The Infinity folks keep to themselves, I guess.

[WarGameGuru]

I think the UW minis are great, I'm not too keen on the Infinity ones - a bit too anime in too many strange poses. Fantastic sculpts, but still.

I have an UW Viridian boxed set, started trimming/assembling a few, and even got the female officer primed, but never got around to painting her because of other projects and lack of time. I was going to use her and the Copplestone Female Werewolf Hunter as a couple of die-hard zombiecalyse survivors, but got sidetracked... as with so many other plans 

I did read through the rules for both games, and especially Infinity was interesting, using d10, as far as I remember. But the price and style of the minis put me off. Could've used proxies, of course...

I think Urban War (independent model skirmishing) and Metropolis (unit-based big skirmishes) is as good an alternative to 40K as is to be found out there. I think Urban Mammoth would be much bigger if they were marketing their stuff more aggressively, and not almost entirely through their website. You have to make yourself known to the potential customers before they come to your website, and to get known, you have to have your minis and rules on the shelves out there...

Actually both don't market their products very well, that probably has a lot to do with it. When it comes to Infinity there are definitely fans of the models out there, as I do see news bits when new models are released, but no one ever talks about the game much.

Even Beasts of War did a small show on Infinity, and they covered some of it, but never really dug into it, and after that we never heard a peep from them about it. I read through some of the rules briefly, and I think many of the mechanics are quite slick, but I also think Infinity from what little I read, is a little too complex and a bit harder to pickup than even 40k.

I'm wondering if that's the issue with Infinity, if it's just too pretentious?

[WarGameGuru]

I think Void 1.1 (and the whole subsequent franchise) suffered from the poor conduct of its then owners, I-Kore. Furthermore, I think it was hard for another game to carve a niche after the demise of Warzone and the heyday of Warhammer 40k 3rd edition.

I remember running a small Void campaign in the early 2000s, but the stress is on "small".

I liked the rules back then, being sleek and quick to play but not that adaptable (changed my mind on that based on more experience gained over the decade). I have NOT played (or even seen, for that matter) the Urban War incarnation, but if they kept to the strong points, it should be a very decent game. Not too keen on the figures, though, except for some nice "soldiery" ones in the Viridian range (not for quality, rather for style - I only like cartoony when I use it for a specific universe adaptation).

As for Infinity, they do seem to have a rather active community, but tend to be organised in specific fora (the "official" Infinity Forum, and in Germany, o12.) rather than the more "fractioned" general wargamer audience. The Infinity folks keep to themselves, I guess.

I've always liked some of the Void models, and the very same ones you speak of mostly the military-looking ones, and some of the cyborg-types, most of which are in the Syntha and Viridian ranges.

I also always felt Infinity was more of a European thing, and what you said backs that up. I can't count how many times I've seen Infinity models and rulebooks on clearance somewhere via an online retailer here in the US over the past year too. I thought they might be going under at one point, because MiniatureMarket blew out all their Infinity stuff not long ago as well, after I saw them on clearance elsewhere. They don't keep stuff around if it doesn't do well.

That's sad too, because I'm not an anime fan at all really, but I do like many of the Infinity models.

[dijit]

Personally I like the look of the Infinity models, and like the look of the rules. Thr biggest problem is that the rules seem to be rather complex and without someone to either guide you through it or a good battle report that goes into the detail of how things work I don't really feel like getting my self together and beating myself through it for yet another game that I play but no one else near me does. But given the chance I'd jump at it being a big Ghost in the Shell lover I think helps a bit.
Duncam

[mrgrigson]

Let's see here...

Yes, I think it's fair to say that GOT was inspired by Infinity.  The sculpting style is distinctive in that the proportions are a bit slimmer than other pieces out there, and thus a bit closer to "natural" proportions.  Considering that Jed used to stock Infinity, and that he built his demo city for the game, I think it's safe to say that it has a soft spot in his heart.  And if he liked the style and wanted his own miniature line to work with it,why not?

I've seen a number of places stock Infinity and later discard it.  I wouldn't be surprised if the reason is that it's hell for a brick and mortar store to support it.  The big problem is repeat sales.  There are very few models that a player can field more than one or two blisters of.  Once you've bought that Meteor Zond, you don't need another one.  If the store wants to dedicate a peg to that product, it's only going to be sold to someone else who's looking to run a Nomads force.  Another problem from the player standpoint is that it's pricey.  Basic infantry models, even the ones you can field unlimited amounts of, are $6 USD apiece before any discounts.  That's at least 50% higher per model than any other company for your basic grunt.  I don't know if anyone else has that particular psychology, but it's in my mind.

Re: Metropolis, I know a lot of stores that bought into Void heavily.  When I-Kore crashed, they couldn't move their product.  Customers didn't want to get into a "dead" game, so a lot of it had to be cleared out to get space for something on the shelves that would sell.  When Urban Mammoth "brought back" the game, the only thing they really brought back was the names of the factions.  They did pretty much everything in their power to require new sales: changed base sizes, changed model scale (the newer ones are a bit larger than the previous ones)... Retailers who dealt with I-Kore felt that they were burned once, and weren't going to give these guys another chance.

So I guess that short form, the reason you don't hear about them is because stores aren't selling them.  

[Malebolgia]

Own both and have played both...started with the entire Viridia faction for Urban War (we played VOID back in the days and loved it, so the step was logical). The game doesn't work well IMO...the whole order-system is weird and a bit too clunky (especially close combat). To me it felt like a poor attempt at an original skirmish game. Too bad, because I really like the VOID universe (although UM really screwed it...come on...Russian VASA???).
Infinity is very nice and original, but also very fast and deadly. Games can be ended by turn 2 if you don't go heavy on terrain. That's one of my gripes with the game: you really need a lot (and by that, I mean A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT) of scenery to let the game shine very well. With too few scenery, there are too many firing lanes and you'll have too many reactive shooting. This can really lead to a fast and boring game. If you add in loads and loads of scenery, the game becomes fantastic! There's a lot of strategy in the game and there are some really nice special abilities (TO Camo, Para Deployment, Hacking, etc.). The other gripe I have is the order system. The game works that each model gives you an order to spend (so 5 models = 5 orders). You can give a model one or more orders from your order pool. Yes, this means you can take a huge Landmate and a load of cheap lackeys. The lackeys stay behind in cover to provide covering fire and the Landmate stomps through the field with all of the orders. This can really become unbalanced if you and your opponent are playing different styles. In addition, heavy weapons are very deadly and tend to dominate the field. They are more accurate, pump out more shots and do more damage. That's painful in a game where each passive model can fire at enemies walking around. We made several house rules on the order system and special weapons and then it works well IMO.

All in all Infinity is a nice game if you're willing to work on it and Urban War isn't very good IMO (but the Viridian sculpts still kick ass!).

[Dr.Falkenhayn]

Actually Void  itself was a Rip off from the Warzone Rules,ok Warzone is a D20 and Void a D10 System,besides that the Game Mechanics were absolutely the Same,even the Counters in Void looked like  the Warzone Ones...
However,Void is still very popular in my Gaming Group.Becaus of its very flexible Oobs ( there is no "you have to field Grunt Units before you can have Elite Units" and such Things),Tons of Vehicles,and a fast Gaming Speed.
Unfortunely Urban War and Metropolis arent that Great.Very unbalanced,Lack of Vehicles,some confusing Rules and much more Oob Limitations...
Check out my Photobucket if you wanna see some cool Void Stuff  

http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad244/Falkenhayn/Void/

im not that much interested in Infinty,have so much Void Models left,that i dont want to spend more Money on more "far Sci-fi "Miniatures.The Rules seemed ok to me,as long as you like Grenades moving around the Corner etc...

[Malebolgia]

VOID the same as Warzone? How? One game used a Move-Shoot-Assault system whereas the other uses an action-based system. Totally different way of playing as Warzone allows for much more freedom in gameplay than VOID. VOID on the other hand was much more streamlined and gave quicker games (although they relied heavily on templates and OTT weaponry). Although the templates and counters are similar, the games themselves are way different IMO.

[Dr. The Viking]

A played some 10 games of Urban War when it was released.
The lack of balance and somewhat complete randomness of it all left us rather unimpressed.

But if you're into the background the balance won't be a problem as you would no doubt do scenarios based on something other than points armylists. 

[sasori]

Infinity is currently my favorite game. It is the kind of game that is a little more detailed then most, but the reward is that you can use real world tactics in the course of playing the game and they have a tendency to really work.

What follows is a description of the game I did for my local game store's forums to give a quick rundown of the way things work in Infinity.

Infinity is a very fast paced and very deadly skirmish based sci fi game which uses D20s. Most games are goin' to involve less than 12 minis per side. Starter sets come with 6 minis usually one of which is unique to the starter and not available in a blister pack individually.

You build your army by spendin' points on Units (a unit is an individual figure). Unit choices are limited only to how many of a particular Unit type is available (some like Regular Infantry troops are unlimited, most Heavy Infantry Units are limited to 1 or 2 per army), there are 17 - 22 Unit choices for each of the 6 armies with many choices for each type of Unit (different weapons/equipment options). This all increased with the addition of "Human Sphere" the first expansion to Infinity. Plus a Mercenary army which can pull choices from each army except the Combined Army (aliens). So you want to spend your points on 12 guys or 2 really badass guys, it's entirely up to you.

On your turn you get 1 Order for each figure in your army (plus one additional if your LT. is still alive) to spend on issuin' orders to your troops. Orders are spent to allow your troops to do a Skill: move, shoot, throw grenade, discover a camouflaged hidden opponent, administer first aid, repair equipment, hack your opponents computers, or some other action. Skills are classified as short or long. Normally you can do 2 Short Skills per one Order or one Long Skill. Orders are spent one at a time in anyway you want, one per each guy in your group, all on one guy in your group, or any combination you see fit. Got a target you need taken out? Spend an Order to shoot him. Still alive? Spend an Order to shoot him again. Repeat as necessary.    Now what really sets this game apart from all the others is, while it's your turn and you're spendin' your Orders shootin' at my guys I'm not just standin' there hopin' your guys are lousy shots while I wait to live through your turn, I'm doin' stuff too. When one of your guys spends an Order to take an action, every one of my guys who has line of sight (called Line of Fire in the game) to the actin' figure gets one free Reactive Order in response. What this means is when your guy spends an Order to fire his HMG four times (HMG fires four shots) at my guys (4 shots at one target, or one shot at 4 targets, or 2 and 2) each of my guys with LoF can shoot back, or dive for cover, or hack the electronics in your armor and immobilize you if you're in Heavy armor, or some other single short skill. The point is stuff is always goin' on for both players. Now for those of you who were thinkin' back in the previous paragraph how cool it sounds to take two badass guys with your points consider, 2 guys means three Orders per turn against my 12 guys with 13 orders per turn, and when you spend one order to shoot your 4 shot HMG I'll probaby have 5-7 guys with LOF who'll each get one shot back/throw grenades at you. Granted your guy will be tougher and harder to kill, but that's what I brought the grenades for.     And on my turn I'll have 13 more chances.    This is also why it's not wise to pump all your Orders in one guy as a battle plan.

With all the shootin' on your turn and shootin' on my turn it does tend to be a very deadly game for players who don't take advantage of cover.  Cover is not only a negative die modifier to be hit but also a positive die modifier for armor saves. Cover is your friend.

Hackin' is a great concept in this game. Is your opponent comin' at you with Heavy Infantry (man-sized powered battle armor suited troops) or Remotes (think Tachicomas from Ghost in the Shell)? Well spend an Order if they're within range and hack them (make a die roll) to Immobilize them, he'll have to spend an Order on his turn to reboot the system (make a die roll) to regain control and be able to use 'em. Now if he's usin' TAGs ( Tactical Armored Gear, those twice the size of a man battle suits you see in anime) on you, once you successfully hack and Immobilize it, hack it again and use it as your own.    What? Are those guided missiles bein' fired at your guys? Hack 'em and redirect them off target.  Think he might have Airborne drop troops who will land behind your lines on a future turn, hack his transport and force them to all land in the same spot with a greatly increased chance of missin' their target. Or other stuff. Don't forget your hacker can oppose enemy hackers who try to do any of this stuff to you.   

Yes Infinity can be a short and bloody game, at first. But once you get a few game under your belt, you will find it is a game that is very different from any other game you've played, in a really good way. In an early game I played with a friend we were playin' a 250 AP battle to force retreat of the others army (when an army looses 60% of its points it retreats off the board). After a few turn he had lost 6 guys I had lost 2, I could see he was gettin' a little bit bummed as he appeared to be doin' so poorly. So we stopped and counted up our losses, and there was only a 9 point difference, we couldn't believe how close it was. Two turns later we checked totals again, he could win by takin' out one of my guys, I would have to take out 2 of his to win, (my guys were more pricey point wise, and I could only get line of sight on his two cheapest guys). I ended up winnin' with a difference of 13 points of troops lost per side. A pretty balanced game in my book.

UPDATE - There is a first expansion/second rulebook "Human Sphere" with new troops, equipment, and rules. There is also a new Faction and new ways to play your old armies, for example you can now play an exclusively Japanese army made up with a limited choice of minis from the Yu Jing army list but with a new army wide benefit to make up for the choice limitations.

I hope this helps the curious.

[barrass]

Hi there,

Have some urban war stuff, mostly VASA and i was involved with the play testing, but only problem is that Urban Mammoth haven't released any new miniatures for over a year . If your going to play, play the strike team skirmish level, played in about an hour.

Thanks Jeff

[Dr.Falkenhayn]

VOID the same as Warzone? How? One game used a Move-Shoot-Assault system whereas the other uses an action-based system. T

yeah and what could you do with the 3 Actions in Warzone?Move,shoot,assault
the Rules for "giving Orders","gone prone"and their  Game effect were exactly the same and the Fact that Mr Peter Flannery himself worked for both Games  Just my two Cents, dont feel pissed Pal,iam a Spawnie myself ( Yes Issue 10!)

@ sasori
thx for the Quick Infinty Rundown!

[hubbabubba]

The biggest problem is that the rules seem to be rather complex and without someone to either guide you through it or a good battle report that goes into the detail of how things work I don't really feel like getting my self together and beating myself through it

That's exactly how I felt, but over here in Spain there seem to be a lot of people who play it and it really does help to have someone walk you through a demo game,or three.
The you tube videos corvus have been posting of late are a good way to get a feel for the basic mechanics.
With the system, I reckon the best thing you can do I pay a game or two with just the basic troop types, not using any of the special abilities at all, as it's really only all the special abilities that complicate things, the actual rules are fairly simple.
One thing I did find which annoys me is the way things are organised in the rules books, the way they've set out the rules is not particularly logical IMO, and some info is quite hard to locate, it isn't where you'd expect it to be. However the forums are very active and a good place to get clarification.

Infinity is very nice and original, but also very fast and deadly. Games can be ended by turn 2 if you don't go heavy on terrain. That's one of my gripes with the game: you really need a lot (and by that, I mean A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT) of scenery to let the game shine very well. With too few scenery, there are too many firing lanes and you'll have too many reactive shooting. This can really lead to a fast and boring game. If you add in loads and loads of scenery, the game becomes fantastic!................ ................
The game works that each model gives you an order to spend (so 5 models = 5 orders). You can give a model one or more orders from your order pool. Yes, this means you can take a huge Landmate and a load of cheap lackeys. The lackeys stay behind in cover to provide covering fire and the Landmate stomps through the field with all of the orders.

I'd say this is pretty spot on.
You need lots of scenery for a good game, but having a few dead zones that are suicide to cross can also be interesting.
100% agree about alocating all your orders to the powerful troops, we're thinking about limiting the maximum number of orders that can be allocated to any one model.
What are your house rules Malebolgia?