Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: Ignatieff on 12 April 2008, 03:21:33 PM
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Has anyone got a good, clear - preferably visual - reference for Bolshevik sailor uniforms. The plate in the relevant Osprey book is not particularly good.
thanks!
Ignatieff
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Рабоче-крестьянский красный флот (РККФ)
(Workers' and Peasants' Red Fleet)
1. Flag officer 1921
2. Adjutant (leutnant) 1917
3. Red commander of marine infantry 1918-1921
4. Sailor 1921
(http://forum.backofbeyond.de/images/misc/08_04_12_rkkf.jpg)
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Nice! :)
The Copplestone figures I have are wearing jackets with double rows of buttons. Presumably these would be black?
Ignatieff
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The Copplestone figures I have are wearing jackets with double rows of buttons. Presumably these would be black?
always.
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Thank you! :mrgreen:
Ignatieff
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http://flagspot.net/flags/su~ru.html
I'm also looking for details on these - found this quite useful. Does anyone have any more uniform reference by any chance? The back of the 'square rigger' for instance?
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I've always liked the plain red flag of the early revolt; it seemed similar to the flags of the forlorn hopes of an earlier day. I think there are some comparisons that can be drawn between the sailors revolt (both of them) and the forlorn hopes.
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I'm about to paint some Copplestone (Bolshevik) Russian Sailors who have a mixture of double breasted jackets and v-necked over-shirts (http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/images/bu42.jpg). I'd like to resolve the (to my mind) conflicts between the excellent plate in this thread from the Prof. and the plate in the Osprey RCW(1) (http://www.amazon.de/gp/reader/1855326086/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link).
1. I intend to paint the buttoned jackets in Black. But, are the v-necked over-shirts usually in this dark blue colour? (I'm aware of the striped under-shirts) ?
2. Were trousers more likely black as here or white as in the Osprey plate?
3. Any clues on the relevant sleeve insignia? I assume a star on the over-shirt for ordinary seamen as here, but what about on the jackets (Osprey p39 suggests no insignia)? What what would ranks below the flag-officer have?
Any help much appreciated.
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I suppose Russian navy had summer and winter uniforms.
The German navy did at the time (and I guess all navies do). Summer uniform was white, winter uniform dark-blue. The pics above would would suggest winter uniform.
Both the early days of the revolution and the Kronstadt revolt happened in the winter.
"Death to the Bolsheviks, long live the Soviets!"
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The pics above would would suggest winter uniform.
Interesting idea. I wondered however whether the above might perhaps be dress uniforms?
Thanks for the input.
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sorry not too much time this week. Indeed, there were winter and summer uniform for the sailors, blue and white. Dress uniform was blue too, thus the pic above could fit for the winter and the dress version. Though the dress uniform had some additional golden coloured elements, see the pic in the attachment.
there werent not too many insignias for the sailors, sometimes an anchor, sometimes nothing, that red star on the pic below isn't an usual one, actually the guy is a "Old Sailor", the red fleet had that sort of title for the veterans of the fleet, only they had these stars.
Osprey guy is just a mix. The second pic in my attachment is a good example for the differences. The marines on the pics wear lots of different uniform pieces, also some infantry ones.
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Excellent attachments. Very helpful. Many thanks :D
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Many thanks for posting those - very handy :)
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The Copplestone figures I have are wearing jackets with double rows of buttons. Presumably these would be black?
always.
Remeber that the Navy has a different idea of what "black" means. Black means a very, very, very, very dark shade of blue so highlight your jackets with dark shades of blue and not charcoal/grays.
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The Copplestone figures I have are wearing jackets with double rows of buttons. Presumably these would be black?
always.
Remeber that the Navy has a different idea of what "black" means. Black means a very, very, very, very dark shade of blue so highlight your jackets with dark shades of blue and not charcoal/grays.
russian navy black is black. There were times I wore that stuff and can assure you that was black
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Help - can someone advise me how to get images into a reply?
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Black can be tough to do. On way to get a good transition is to mix charcoal and black and continue to use more charcoal to do highlights. Another is to use a dark navy blue and do the same thing, using more of the highlight with just a tiny bit of off white or sky blue to get the highest highlights!
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The Copplestone figures I have are wearing jackets with double rows of buttons. Presumably these would be black?
always.
Remeber that the Navy has a different idea of what "black" means. Black means a very, very, very, very dark shade of blue so highlight your jackets with dark shades of blue and not charcoal/grays.
Wow, I was told you were experienced but didn't know you served during the revoluton... ;D lol
russian navy black is black. There were times I wore that stuff and can assure you that was black
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Help - can someone advise me how to get images into a reply?
Photobucket account and then its a peice of cake. I will call you.
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there is a tamiya acrylic called "anthracite", that I like to use for highlighting what is meant to be "black".
remember that black cloth dye is achieved either with a blueish/greenish or a brownish very dark tone, which show when the dye starts to fade
I wonder to which colour russian navy cloth would fade
German navy had also Black - blueish black
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http://papercraft.mybb.ru/uploads/000a/82/08/602-2-f.jpg
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I wonder to which colour russian navy cloth would fade
It is hard to tell without more colour pictures!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4498400346_f0de36b0b9_o.jpg)
The colour registration is poor, but comparing the trousers to jacket, I would say that the trousers faded to dark grey, whereas the jackets perhaps took on a bluish tint.
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http://letitbit.net/download/6113.646df2df33238f144736e50771/___________________________________________1696_1917.rar.html
- Book: "Russian sea uniform 1696-1917"
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Black, highlighted with mixed in white:
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll111/wamasaka/Rome/Figurenfotos007.jpg)
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Book: "Russian sea uniform 1696-1917"
It's quite a download, but well worth the wait. Nice that it had so many English translations.
Can you answer me one thing? I have pictures of early Bolshevik sailors in usual jackets and striped shirts, but peaked caps. They are black-and-white pictures but it seems to me that they have coloured cap bands. What are they? Have they just plundered senior officers' caps? Or are they some sort of specialist?
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(http://s006.radikal.ru/i214/1004/af/e2bd5eabaee0.jpg)
You about these band speak?
These bands mean the attribute to crew guard nave.
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You about these band speak?
No those are St George bands. Георгиевский ?? Very interesting to see them though. Before today I had not realised they existed for sailors.
In my photo there are sailors but some wear a furazhka (фуражка) like soldiers, not the usual sailors cap. It has a black top, but coloured band. Like this http://russiamilitaria.ru/uploads/post-157-1163815091_thumb.jpg
I will try and post the photo, but I have to scan it first.
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about black cloth colour
black dye is usually a very dark blueish/greenish or brownish.
So fading would go into dark blue petrol or dark brown, never to grey/anthracite - these are useful as highlights when painting
I sometimes use the said colours with a black "armour wash" or thinned down black wash
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(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/4500482071_5934b65d6f_o.png)
These men were apparently in a Petrograd food collecting detachment. Obviously sailors, but not wearing the usual hats.
The cockade appears to be some sort of anchor.
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The Service cap was intended for boatswain and other senior NCO.
Also beside red sometimes served and former imperial sea officers.
The Anchor - or improvisation, or this sailors of the civil or river fleet (?).
St George bands carried only on Black sea and in Gvardeyskom (Guard) crew.
(http://s004.radikal.ru/i206/1004/7f/364f8c3f1528.jpg)
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Cheers, Cuprum. I think I will go with black caps bands for NCOs, with it just looking like a different colour in that photograph.
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The Colour of the service cap black with white line. The Other variant no.
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I just wanted to say thanks for this thread. I am not really that much less confused after reading through the 3 pages, but at least there are some hints. lol And the Steve Dean painted examples help as well (from what I can see... they should be correct).
Any idea where I could find a good specimen of a flag they would carry? Could it be a normal, plain Bolshevik one?
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In the early period immediately after the revolution they would probably just have a red flag. The Hammer and Sickle didn't become the official flag until 1923 I think.
EDIT: on the first page of this thread Keith links to the flagspot site - http://flagspot.net/flags/su~ru.html - where there are different flags from different periods. So I suppose really it depends when and wherre your sailors are based I guess.
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Oh, I missed that... Thank you very much. Pity that there isn't a nice stylised version of these available. Might have to try to get the dust off my photoshop skills. :)
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Look a theme here.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16358.0
Besides, here a banner taken on a red military river vessel. Quite probably, that seamen on a land used the same banners.
(http://s46.radikal.ru/i111/1008/ed/447cafcd57b9.jpg)
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Brilliant! Thank you. I've seen the same flag with a blue Andrea's Cross and someone told me that it is also suitable for sailors. Is that true?
EDIT: By the way... Your Black Army flag is beautiful!
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This banner with the Andreevsky cross has been grasped by the Polish armies on a red vessel during the Soviet-Polish war in 1920. It is not regulated anywhere. In Russian imperial fleet the banner was with a blue cross. Probably, red seamen used a red Andreevsky cross what to keep sea symbolics, but to designate red colour the accessory to Red fleet.
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I see. That is very interesting. So, in theory, I could paint one banner with the red and one with the blue and then decide before every game depending if I play red or not, right?
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Blue cross - imperial army or white seamen, a red cross - red seamen, a black banner - seamen-anarchists (such too was much).
Why is not present!
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Perfect. That way I could have different flags for the same group. So the anarchist flag would be plain black?
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Flags of anarchists usually black though could be and red. The photo of seamen with such flags at me, unfortunately, is not present. But, with the big share of probability, it is possible to assume, that there were anarchist slogans. Like the such:
"Anarchy - mother of an order!"; "through anarchy - to an order!"; "the power generates parasites. Long live Anarchy!" And others. The symbolics - a skull with bones was often used.
White seamen were not numerous and, as far as I know, were at war as a part of sea and river fleet, sometimes on armored trains.
Here the image of seamen from army Kolchaks, The uniform from deliveries of allies was partially used:
(http://s58.radikal.ru/i160/1008/58/f2bb71ef8e4b.jpg)
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You are a treasure chest of knowledge, cuprum! :) Thank you.
I guess I need to paint a pin on the caps above the ships name for my soldiers. As for the ships name... I think I will leave that out. It's too small of an area to paint a name on it effectively.
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In similar cases I use such way.
The place where the inscription completely is located is painted over by a gold paint. Then, by means of very thin brush or a toothpick, this site is painted over and gold rectangles in size with the letter are left. After that cautious strokes designate"letters. An inscription, of course, it will not be good to be read, but it will be visible, that on this place something is written.
(http://s60.radikal.ru/i168/1008/5e/c880566a8914.jpg)
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Genius! I will try it tonight.
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Cuprum, what is the source of that picture?
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Greetings Mark.
You ask about drawing with white seamen?
It is drawing from Russian military-historical magazine "Sergeant" (Сержант), number now I do not remember. If it is necessary, I can send scanned article.
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It's me again... :D Am I right that on this picture some caps have a red and some have a bronze cockade?
(http://s006.radikal.ru/i214/1004/af/e2bd5eabaee0.jpg)
Could someone explain why?
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It is a shot from a film "Admiral Kolchak". On this shot the moment when there was a revolution of 1917 is shown. Seamen go to except the weapon at officers.
For that moment still revolutionary sailors and soldiers often continued to wear cockades though shoulder straps have already lifted. Often there was an improvisation - the imperial cockade was fitted by a red fabric. It was the short period. Soon these cockades have been completely removed from the circulation in revolutionary troops.
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I see... So the red cockades have nothing to do with these men being guard? And it's better if I don't paint any cockades on my miniatures.
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Рабоче-крестьянский красный флот (РККФ)
(Workers' and Peasants' Red Fleet)
1. Flag officer 1921
2. Adjutant (leutnant) 1917
3. Red commander of marine infantry 1918-1921
4. Sailor 1921
(http://forum.backofbeyond.de/images/misc/08_04_12_rkkf.jpg)
Can you upload the image please?
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I am a newbie here and just wanna say Hi to everyone. I am Daniel from Pennsylvania, US.
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free photoshop tutorials (http://www.photoshop-garden.com)
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After reading through this topic?
are these the red sailors of the river fleet?
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w107/dburns_04/364f8c3f1528.jpg)
and would the river boat have this flag on the stern.
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w107/dburns_04/447cafcd57b9.jpg)
Thanks
David
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This photo from the film - shows men of the Imperial Navy. Until the overthrow of the Tsar.
Red sailors removed the straps and imperial cockade.
The rest of the sailors uniforms remained the same.
Imperial Russian Navy flag - blue St. Andrew's cross on a white field.
Due to the fact that after the Bolshevik revolution is no regulation on the banners were not, many of the red flags were very unusual. One of these flags is shown in this figure - this flag was captured by the Poles in 1920, along with the red river war ship. Red sailors have replaced the blue cross of the imperial fleet - in red - "proletarian" colors.
Uniforms sailors and banners of river and sea vessels are unlikely to have differences in RCW.
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I advise the gauntlet series of booklets on the period,the tom hillman translations are great. I've got the lot on all the combatants,they are(if you find them)cheap too. The one you want here is red army of the Russian civil war 1917-1922.
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http://papercraft.mybb.ru/uploads/000a/82/08/602-2-f.jpg
Cuprum
This link no longer works - would it be possible for repeat for those of use coming to the discussion late, please?
Many thanks
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(http://papercraft.mybb.ru/uploads/000a/82/08/602-2-f.jpg)
Link continues to work ... You have are probably a problem with the computer's security settings.
That's the theme for the uniforms of sailors on my forum. I can advise you on the correct color of the specific figures.
http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/showthread.php?fid=12&tid=271&block=0
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Excellent - many thanks.