Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Dr. Zombie on April 28, 2014, 10:16:15 AM
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I am not sure if this is the right place to post this. But I am sure a mod will move it then..
I just saw this new kickstarter.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4thwar/4thwar-equipment-wargaming-table
It is a cardboard gaming table!? And it is being marketed by a rather largebreasted woman.
For a long time I have felt that kickstarter was being used and abused by people with projects that did not really need a kickstarter. Why for instance are Reaper, CMON and Mantic doing kickstarter, they are large established companies. When they have a project they should just do it. They only use kickstarter as a an anvertising tool and to take pre orders. And I don't think that was the original idea behind kickstarter.
And then there are people with halfbaked completely unoriginal ideas who try and raise money for yet another dungeon crawl/zombie apocalypse game and swear that it is completely different from the hundreds of other similar games out there.
But with this particular campaign I kind of feel like a new low has been hit.
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Er.... cardboard table... a gaming table that will fold in on itself if you lean to it - or spill some fluid on it...
What a terrific idea... ::)
I can build a wooden table with folding legs for less than this... lol
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But look at the BOOBS in the video you have to buy it! Make the lady happy.
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You know what? That's a clever design. Stupid material to make it from though and not that cheap.
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I saw a review posted via TMP that showed a man laying on top of three of the tables. They are supposed to take 100 kgs.
I think they would wear out in a short time as the legs would get damaged though.
I do like boobs but it seems a bit tasteless.
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According to the page it's "MADE & BRAIN in ITALY", "By a player mind for players fight". :D
I don't mind large companies doing Kickstarters. As a matter of fact, I prefer that over small companies doing "kickshoppers", where the "project" is just a glorified webshop.
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The table itself is kind of meh, but the vinyl mats don't look that bad.
Since you cannot seem to buy them seperately, it's a moot point really.
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I prefer that over small companies doing "kickshoppers", where the "project" is just a glorified webshop.
Yeah, there are lots of "projects" where someone is just trying to sell his stock. My favorite is this guy who has sold £400 worth of stones, sorry, model asteroids: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1419757724/asteroids
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/932/983/da05e9a58a967f8777367007aff58b53_large.jpg?1398623604)
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Hahaha. That is great! That must be Rock bottom.
I once saw someone selling an airguitar on ebay. It had only been used once at a Rolling Stones show.
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I have no problem with this but will never participate. I don't need or want the product and I don't waste my limited funds on things that don't enhance my war games. Market forces will show it can succeed as a niche item or it will fail. Why the economic inquisition attitude about successful small companies?
As for 'large' companies using KS, why not? Again, with the PC mindset against successful companies. Give it a rest, dudes. "Successful" doesn't mean rolling with money to risk on uncertain ideas or even probable brilliant "new angle/twist" variations in a crowded part of the market. Larger companies, (that means what, two or three full-time employees? This isn't WalMart,) can have ideas that don't entice people. Given the War Gamer AADD history of "I'd buy a billion those" translating to "none" too often to count and the number of projects that that fail to get funding despite what appears to be a quality project (while some drivel driven dustbin bound project funds in hours) I think any one thinking of spending (relatively) significant sums of money might be wise to seek "investment commitment" from the 'cheerleaders' out there.
You don't like a project - don't put your money in?
You don't like a "large" company in KS? Start a petition to KS (good luck with that, they would have stopped it if they didn't like the results,) to limit participation by some practical criteria. Practical means measurable standard incase you need clarity.
Okay, I have deleted several 'bound to get me reprimanded' sarcasm laden statements before posting so I am going to stop and close by merely saying, "WTF?"
Gracias,
Glenn
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Yeah, there are lots of "projects" where someone is just trying to sell his stock. My favorite is this guy who has sold £400 worth of stones, sorry, model asteroids: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1419757724/asteroids
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/932/983/da05e9a58a967f8777367007aff58b53_large.jpg?1398623604)
They are based? ;) :o They come in multiple colors! With two kinds (Clear and black (should that be 'Deep space black"?) in color) of basing!!! Selling rocks would means no bases and no painting included. lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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I am not sure if this is the right place to post this. But I am sure a mod will move it then..
I just saw this new kickstarter.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4thwar/4thwar-equipment-wargaming-table
<snip>
But with this particular campaign I kind of feel like a new low has been hit.
I did not run the video element(s) but not even close to rock bottom. A little bit crazy but maybe crazy like a fox? That was not a comment on the nice female member (is that Caterina and Chiara?) of the group... I am prone to brunettes... but that alone won't sell me on a project.
Gracias,
Glenn
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<snip>
And then there are people with halfbaked completely unoriginal ideas who try and raise money for yet another dungeon crawl/zombie apocalypse game and swear that it is completely different from the hundreds of other similar games out there.
<snip>
Maybe people support them for cheap miniatures? That aspect has tempted me until I realized the time involved in so many of these 'great ideas' was months to possibly years (okay in at least one case maybe never.) I refer you to P. T. Barnum.
Which is why good businesses raise money (commitment) via KS for ideas.
Gracias,
Glenn
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<snip>
It is a cardboard gaming table!? And it is being marketed by a rather largebreasted woman.
For a long time I have felt that kickstarter was being used and abused by people with projects that did not really need a kickstarter. Why for instance are Reaper, CMON and Mantic doing kickstarter, they are large established companies. <snip>
Now I am dying to know how many employees the large companies of Reaper, CMON, and Mantic Employ. I can think of one company who might qualify as seriously "big" but compared to the overall business world I still suspect it is 'small potato' level.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I do like boobs but it seems a bit tasteless.
Smear them with maple syrup.
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Why for instance are Reaper, CMON and Mantic doing kickstarter, they are large established companies.
Large compared to some other gaming companies but nothing compared to many other industries as others have noted.
All of these companies are using KS to launch entire ranges of products all at once. Compare Mantic's pre-KS release schedule with their post-KS one. Look at Reaper's Bones range pre and post-KS.
Rivet Wars from CMON is another example. They financed the base game and four or five expansion packs all in one go. Something I suspect that they wouldn't have been able to do without the injection of funds that they got via KS.
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Product is meh but Mateo and his Crew having my Sympathies for that hilarious misspelling:Hystorical,Wharhammer lol lol
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I don't think that the video was the best selling point for the product, hilarious yes, but it really needed to spend more of its time focused on the project, I also don't really see how the product solves the problem of:
"I don't have enough space"
solution, buy a table that you fold away and store somewhere, and then get out into your area which still has just as little space...
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I personally knew Matteo at a convention a couple a months ago, and well, i don't really understand the point of Dr Zombie when he says that it is just a glorified webshop.
I agree about the mistaste of the booby woman, and the price is not too low as well, but beside of that, this project is exactely the kind of project that should stay on KS: Costs for mass production are high, and they haven't much to invest without a crowdfunding!
That said, if you don't like you don't have to buy it - personally, i won't - but honestly that's not a bad idea for a portable table that fit in a bag! And - although some of you called it "not original" - please, show me another 5 kg table around.
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Folding wallpaper tables?
Not too stable though.
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Wouldn't mind bumping that table.
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I got 24"x48" plastic tables with metal folding legs - the hard grey plastic banquet-type tables - from Costco a year ago. They cost me ~$25 each so I bought 4, enough to make a 8x4' table. They might be 10-20lb each? Pretty easy to collapse and store, and won't melt if I spill a drink on them.
This one is a novel idea, but it seems like there are already better and cheaper options out there.
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I got 24"x48" plastic tables with metal folding legs - the hard grey plastic banquet-type tables - from Costco a year ago. They cost me ~$25 each so I bought 4, enough to make a 8x4' table. They might be 10-20lb each? Pretty easy to collapse and store, and won't melt if I spill a drink on them.
This one is a novel idea, but it seems like there are already better and cheaper options out there.
Cheaper - for sure: I was thinking about buying some LACKs from ikea for gaming, since each of them is 12" side and they are really cool looking!
Better: Again, if you have to bring a table with you i doubt you can afford to carry 30-60 lbs on your shoulders, no? Expecially if you don't have a car to store everything.
The idea has some downsides for sure, but offers something that was not possible before. For a not-cheap price.
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Hahaha. That is great! That must be Rock bottom.
I once saw someone selling an airguitar on ebay. It had only been used once at a Rolling Stones show.
At a Rolling Stones concert? Wow But.....certainly not played by Keef, The Human riff as he has forgotten how to play 8)
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I think I'll manage without it...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GsRDfweBZXg/UyScbzxwuhI/AAAAAAAABFE/fUIIF6LGJZo/s1600/Attic-Light-04-600.JPG)
:D
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We all know that sex sells in almost any other business world wide. So why not in this business. If i would have the money i'd pledge 'cause i like italians speaking English, i like well endowed dark haired women and......well....just because i can 8)
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Cheaper - for sure: I was thinking about buying some LACKs from ikea for gaming, since each of them is 12" side and they are really cool looking!
Better: Again, if you have to bring a table with you i doubt you can afford to carry 30-60 lbs on your shoulders, no? Expecially if you don't have a car to store everything.
The idea has some downsides for sure, but offers something that was not possible before. For a not-cheap price.
From what I gather from the site, each table is 2'x4' and weighs approx 10lb. To make a 4x6 table you are looking at 30lb. Also, the actual playing surface does not seem to bend, so you are still carrying a 2'x4' bag for each table which is incredibly awkward - no way you are taking these guys anywhere without a car!
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From what I gather from the site, each table is 2'x4' and weighs approx 10lb. To make a 4x6 table you are looking at 30lb. Also, the actual playing surface does not seem to bend, so you are still carrying a 2'x4' bag for each table which is incredibly awkward - no way you are taking these guys anywhere without a car!
I'm afraid you misunderstood: The table weights 10 lb in total (6x4), and the three panels fit in the same bag. It is not a practical bag, but you can walk across a city to meet your friends with that.
I'm not saying it's a must-buy product (i never cared about the "official" sizes for gaming, usually a table is more than enough for me), but sure has his value!
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I think in general it's a good idea. Lightweight foldaway tables but at that price I'd rather do what Timbor said and buy a few plastic ones that are heavier. Sure if I'm going somewhere it might be a little harder to fit into the car and take a few more trips to get set up. No problem with using sex to sell the product. I think that type of marketing is more for impulse buying though. "Yes I will give the pretty lady my money now" but with kickstarter you have a few days to think about it after making that initial pledge, by that stage the memory of the boobs may have worn off.
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Ah, 10lbs total? This photo is misleading then, as it seems like it says that for just the one table:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/935/459/915dbc7afe33c3469bc8ca1f47364b48_large.jpg?1398678728)
In that case it is a much better item, but at $200 (shipping included) for something that is not waterproof and has questionable long-term durability...
I can't help but think of all the other miniatures I could buy with that cash. :D
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lol, good point there. As a kid I just used to play on the ground in a part of the house that was out of the way. No trouble with storing, portability and you stand and jump on the playing surface. Of course sometimes things did get kicked and trod on.
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Not the best idea I've seen and not something I would buy.
Cardboard is quite good in compression but that table doesn't fully utilize this, I think that there will be a lot of lateral movement across the length of the individual tables. Cardboard also wears quickly and is not very resistant to damage so I think the top billing of 100% recyclable gives some indication of the life expectancy, it's a disposable table.
Also why would you want to transport it? I thought the whole point of going somewhere with the toys was to play a game usually because the venue you're going to has a table big enough to play on.
Finally if you want to play on cardboard boxes try here http://www.kitepackaging.co.uk/scp/heavy-duty-cardboard-boxes/double-wall-boxes/ the second from the bottom just about fits the bill and will only cost £30
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I think there's two very large aspects of this kickstarter we haven't touched upon enough yet.
Or , if that isn't obvious enough.TITS. :o
I like how mantic always get the fire when it comes to using kickstarter, but they aren't a big company.Before kickstarter they had maybe 10 employees, now they have maybe 40?they seem big BECAUSE of their clever use of kickstarter, but without it they'd be on a release schedule of 3 or 4 miniatures per range per year, dread ball would be one game with 2 teams ,deadzone wouldn't exists and kings of war would still be the same miniatures form when it was released.they probably are sitting on alot of money, but all of that is already allocated kickstarter money.
As for cmon, until kickstarter i didn't even know they made games.And from what i can tell THEY don't, they're more of a publishing house for game makers, and having your game on kickstarter under their name is sort of like being on the penguin classics section in a bookshop.penguin just have the contacts and the means to get it sold, but the words on the pages are yours.naturally they take a cut, but you get to be published.
Reaper? who knows, i kind of thought it was just a handful of sculptors and one bloke with a website.but again ,even if they had raised 100 million on the bones kickstarter, the whole point of kickstarter is that most of that money is already spent, going into producing the miniatures.they aren't suddenly rich, they just get to create something they couldn't have straight up afforded before.
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Ah, 10lbs total? This photo is misleading then, as it seems like it says that for just the one table:
You're right! I just asked them on facebook:
thanks for your question Giacomo! the exact total weight of a kit of 3 tables is 13kg so one table 2x4 is about 5 kg.
ok, definitely less interesting, but maybe it explains its cost!
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I don't think they overplayed the boobs. :)
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I like how you can pledge for a collectible, limited edition lump of cardboard.
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Limited edition, is that because they probably only last for a limited time before something happens to them.
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Sorry to be blunt, but this looks like cheap crap and a total rip off.
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Also why would you want to transport it?
You don't have the space to set up a permanent table?
You need a table to do demos at local stores or events?
You play at places that don't have adequate table space?
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Isnt this a much better option at less than half the price?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-4Long-Plastic-Center-Folding-Table-Adjustable-Height-Outdoor-White-/281319877381
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Ozark-Trail-5-Center-Folding-Table-White/14119034
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Isnt this a much better option at less than half the price?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-4Long-Plastic-Center-Folding-Table-Adjustable-Height-Outdoor-White-/281319877381
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Ozark-Trail-5-Center-Folding-Table-White/14119034
As long as you don't need a table more than 2' wide.
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Even if you bought 3 of the Walmart jobbies, it's just over $100. For that you get one cardboard table that....is only 2' wide. These table, going by their picture, are 4x2. The WM table is 5x2.... so for about half the money you get a 5x6 instead of a 4x6 cardboard contraption. I must agree, this is the bottom of the barrel for KS stuff.
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Oops, it looks like for $140, you get a 4x6 cardboard set of tables....plus 55 shipping to the us, or 20 more for the EU.
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A bit harsh though to call this rock bottom. For some it will fulfill their needs perfectly. I imagine that isn't a huge market but nevertheless if you are restricted on the weight you can take this might be a good option. Perhaps if you are travelling overseas and need a table that is unavailable (I'm sure there would be a better option but...)
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I always like to check out people's backer history. They have backed 5, all still funding at the moment.
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There was a table in that video?
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Even if you bought 3 of the Walmart jobbies, it's just over $100.
Try carrying them all somewhere
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Does this fit Kickstarter?
I think it does:
- It's a novel new idea for a product that no one is currently making, check.
- It's from a small new company that really needs the funds to make it real, check.
- No Cthulhu or zombies in sight, check.
Will I be pledging? No, I simply don't need one.
Could they have used better spelling and grammar? Certainly.
Was the girl too pretty? Well, I think she knew what she was talking about or at least had rehearsed the script pretty well, so I'm not going to hold her looks against her. If you've got it...
I think this is a very limited niche product. Unless you really need it to be lightweight, there are cheaper and better options. If it's just a space question, simple A-frame legs and a sheet or two of plywood or chipboard is sturdier, more durable and cheaper. Certainly not for everyone.
The people who have a need for a product like this will have to decide whether the price point is good or not.
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Well on this topic i have......
1 comment
- I like boobs.
1 query
- Why hasn't anyone mentioned the stools yet since everyone "loves" the table idea?
That is all.
Grimm
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So you're saying I should not pursue my idea for a meringue gaming table?
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So you're saying I should not pursue my idea for a meringue gaming table?
Anything edible goes! lol
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So you're saying I should not pursue my idea for a meringue gaming table?
Go on Hammers, we'll egg you on! lol
More seriously, I don't think it's rock bottom and I don't think it's a rip off. In terms of Kickstarter ideas, somewhat simplistically there is no bottom (but there are boobs, yay :D) as it's about bringing together concept, cash, creation, etc. As it's very clear what the product comprises for what it costs then I don't think it is a rip off: now if the campaign were misleading about the product, the capabilities of the team and/or the intent to produce then it'd be a rip off but I'm not aware of any suggestion or evidence of any of that.
What did irritate me tho was the use of so many videos. For FAQs and Risks I'd rather read a document than watch a movie.
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What did irritate me tho was the use of so many videos. For FAQs and Risks I'd rather read a document than watch a movie.
It's a surrogate for direct sales - used more and more often in these interweb times. The theory, is, you identify/sympathize with the person(s) in the video, thus you get more inclined towards buying.
Obviously doesn't work all the time lol
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Try carrying them all somewhere
I gotcha Mate... no worries. Buy your cardboard and enjoy :D.
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I have no idea what he video was actually about, but watching it at work without the sound, I will congratulate them on their use of the lovely lady - maybe next time she can interact with or demonstrate the product? :P
So, going by the thread comments then, I gather it's some kind of overpriced cardboard gaming table?
Dunno, even something like the Citadel Realm of Battle table is usually "only" about £150, but is it lightweight, durable, modular, comes with integrated terrain details, and can be carried about in a bag they supply with the boards. And that's if you want to throw money at the problem; there are obviously cheaper solutions too.
Is the cardboard plastic-laminated at least? What stops it wobbling hilariously when you nudge it? what stops it tipping everything on the floor when you lean on one edge inadvertently?
I actually think this (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1374073278/folding-gaming-table-for-rpg-and-miniatures) is rock-bottom though. Seriously, WTF does this need a KS for? If you can't raise a couple of hundred pounds from friends and family or the bank for a business project, then it doesn't really fill me with enough confidence/desire to bother supporting it either.
As for the "painted rocks" asteroids KS... Yeah, well GF9 sell the same thing but for fewer rocks and at a higher cost. So I guess it's really about somebody spotting a gap in the market and needing to make ends meet - if you look at his other (failed) projects, they were rather more impressive. I still think that EBay rather than KS is the route for this though.
In all these cases though... If you don't like it, don't support it. <shrug>
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Does this fit Kickstarter?
I think it does:
- It's a novel new idea for a product that no one is currently making, check.
- It's from a small new company that really needs the funds to make it real, check.
- No Cthulhu or zombies in sight, check.
Will I be pledging? No, I simply don't need one.
Ditto at 100%.
I actually think this (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1374073278/folding-gaming-table-for-rpg-and-miniatures) is rock-bottom though. Seriously, WTF does this need a KS for? If you can't raise a couple of hundred pounds from friends and family or the bank for a business project, then it doesn't really fill me with enough confidence/desire to bother supporting it either.
Ok, now i'm starting to be confused. This guy was in need for 650$ to start a decent production instead of making one or two tables, what's the problem with that? Is kickstarter only for large project? I think it should be the opposite. Maybe you are just looking at a very simple goal, but you don't want to invest money rather than time.
It's about ideas and projects, not business. Also a 15-years modeller should be able to open a simple kickstarter. Maybe their parents don't give him enough for buying silicon for a semi-pro project, and this way he will not have to invest his money when he just wants to sculpt.
Not everyone here is a businessman, although many of us have some good projects and ideas. Risking money and accomplish projects are two very separated things, and the wonderful side of KS and other crowdfunding platforms is that you don't necessarily have to mix the two things.
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I gotcha Mate... no worries. Buy your cardboard and enjoy :D.
Not interested in it. Just pointing out the obvious. You seem to be missing the point behind the KS of having a collapsible, portable gaming table.
BTW, my FLGS has plenty of those white tables that they use for MtG and board games and they are not very good for tabletop gaming. You need two of them to make a decent table, they don't stay together very well and you need some board or something similar to make a flat surface to build your terrain on. Waste of time for tabletop gaming. They are even too small to play Blood Bowl on.
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@ Sangennaru:
The software the table designer is using is cheap/free as long as it isn't for commercial use. The KS that I highlighted was really to buy that software because he wanted to start up a business.
In other words; not just a personal project in which investors are invited to share/fund, no real need for funding from a business perspective, no especially original or risky product/design. Therefore, why does it need KS? I mean, really?
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On the subject of a collapsible cardboard table ... what about this?
(http://move-itproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/1200-x-600-Move-it-Bombproof-table-e-mail.jpg)
http://move-itproducts.com/move-it-shop
1200mm (nearly 4ft) x 600mm (nearly 2ft), it weighs 4.5kg (just under 10lbs) and costs £40 (about 49 Euros) with £15 UK delivery.
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Not much in it Cubs. For $99 you get two in the KS, which is around the same as what two of yours would cost.
Maybe it's just me, but £55 for a 2' x 4' cardboard box and a four cardboard tubes seems bloody expensive! :o
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@ Sangennaru:
The software the table designer is using is cheap/free as long as it isn't for commercial use. The KS that I highlighted was really to buy that software because he wanted to start up a business.
In other words; not just a personal project in which investors are invited to share/fund, no real need for funding from a business perspective, no especially original or risky product/design. Therefore, why does it need KS? I mean, really?
Sorry, probably it's just me, but that doesn't sound so absurd:
"I am good at making tables, and i'm using a free software for that. Many people asked me to make tables for them but i don't want to be against the law... But what if people ask and then change their minds after i've bought the software? Let's do a kickstarter!"
What's the problem with that? Why is he supposed to use a bank for this? I think it's perfectly legitim, and everyone here would be at his place!
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On the subject of a collapsible cardboard table ... what about this?
(http://move-itproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/1200-x-600-Move-it-Bombproof-table-e-mail.jpg)
http://move-itproducts.com/move-it-shop
1200mm (nearly 4ft) x 600mm (nearly 2ft), it weighs 4.5kg (just under 10lbs) and costs £40 (about 49 Euros) with £15 UK delivery.
Ok, but for $40.00 you can buy a legit plastic/metal table whose lifetime wont be measured in single digit uses. Cardboard just does not hold up well. If they had opted for that plastic board that more or less is built like cardboard, then that might have been better, but a paper table is like throwing money out the door.
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@ Sangennaru:
I understand, and I agree with you in principle. But it's really a question of scale that changes things.
Getting "x" pre-orders to buy one copy of a $500 software programme doesn't need KS. Pre-orders, and not just passing interest.
That goes double when the plans are already drawn (in the free non-commercial software), and you simply need to copy them over. The guy even has proof that the plans will build a working table, since he has one built to show off.
On the other hand, how many sets of plastic models would you need to sell as pre-orders before you can afford to hire a sculptor, a mouldmaker, and get the lot all packaged up and shipped? The answer is: far too many to reach the required funding level before people who pre-ordered get bored of waiting and pull their money.
That's the key difference for me. That's where a project needs to have some level of funding that's just not realistically achievable in a moderately short period of time by many businesses.
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Not much in it Cubs. For $99 you get two in the KS, which is around the same as what two of yours would cost.
Maybe it's just me, but £55 for a 2' x 4' cardboard box and a four cardboard tubes seems bloody expensive! :o
Yeah, maybe. So my cardboard umbrella idea isn't going to be a winner either?
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That's the key difference for me. That's where a project needs to have some level of funding that's just not realistically achievable in a moderately short period of time by many businesses.
And i agree with that.
But: why even a very small project shouldn't be there? I agree, he could have used preorders, but probably he doesn't even have a web shop.
In italy, for instance, it's extremely hard to open a web shop, while running a kickstarter (well, sort of) is a great solution. So: why should you blame hime? I would have done probably the same thing, since there's the opportunity! ^^
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TBH, as the 'investor' offering my money for a KS project, I would much rather back a project 'pre-order' than one which still has yet to be developed. If the product is almost ready to go, I can anticipate what I will receive and should have a shorter wait time.
Nowadays, I tend to shy away from KS campaigns where master sculpting and casting of the main figures has not yet been completed. Unless it is from a reliable company like Reaper, Mantic, who has a proven track record of what can be expected.
KS may be mostly a glorified pre-order nowadays, but at least it puts more responsibility on the project creator to pitch a viable product and do some legwork beforehand.
If you have ever watched Dragons Den (in Canada) or Shark Tank (in the US), I see a KS project as no different than people pitching their products to the investors.
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Compared to pre-orders, there's a great difference:
If you don't reach the goal, nobody will be upset.
So: if i need to buy a very expensive program and i get three preorders, i will loose more money than i get! If i get only 3 backers, everyone will just not get anything, and nobody will complain.
That's the genius behind kickstarter. Nobody loses.
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That's the genius behind kickstarter. Nobody loses.
Apart from the ones that funded and failed...
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Apart from the ones that funded and failed...
Sure, but that's a problem that is identical in a pre-order system, in a web-shop system or whatever! That's between the seller and the buyer... And it sucks, i know =(
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Apart from the ones that funded and failed...
That's why it pays to be picky when choosing a company to support. Risk management.
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Difference is though, with most internet purchases - pre-orders included - you are well insured against not receiving your goods, or receiving faulty goods, whether that be via Paypal or your bank. With KS the investor has a lot less protection and, in the case of stuff that is still in the develop stage, there is a hell of a grey area as to when you get your stuff and what exactly constitutes the seller fulfilling their promises. If the final product isn't what was originally touted the seller can just say it was changed naturally during the development stages and it's then you have to get the lawyers in.
Having said that, I agree that there's nothing wrong with an entrepreneur trying out their idea in a KS, whether I personally want to buy it or not. If he doesn't reach his goal then perhaps he will then ask questions as to why and further develop his product from there. If he does reach his goal, I guess the idea (and big tits) proved good enough to sell.
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If he doesn't reach his goal then perhaps he will then ask questions as to why and further develop his product from there. If he does reach his goal, I guess the idea (and big tits) proved good enough to sell.
this. :)
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Sangennaru, Cubs.
Exactly.
On several levels.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I work with a lot of sales people professionally and what I saw in that video was a genuine attempt to present a new idea in an interesting way. So there was an attractive curvy woman in the video ... let me introduce you to an age old (92 years old actually) marketing principle A.I.D.A. which stands for
Attention
Interest
Desire
Action
Given the multiple comments about the girl (my favourite being Gary's 'there was a table in that video') it seems this got our attention ... So it worked :D
did they then build our interest in the product well we've spent a while kicking about the idea to the degree of linking to other products ... So it worked :D
did they build desire (for the PRODUCT) hmmm maybe not but they were close - some discussion of the materials longevity might have helped ... didn't work :(
Action ... as in buy it - nope :( ... as in think about alternative folding tables ... yup :D
If there had been more about the longevity of the product maybe from the gaming group "We've been using the same tables for two years and they get played on twice a week but are still perfect" etc that might have helped win us over.
I certainly don't think this is terrible.
Overpriced? Well it depends. A table I can transport around and play on vs one of those new GW Knight models ... all comes down to value rather than price (value being the perception of the price cost vs use / desire matrix ... it gets complicated)
For me this was a perfect kickstarter - an individual person with an idea offering it to the world ... well done that man ... and I've seen far worse corporate videos in my time! (Although the spelling mistakes should have been easy to catch.)
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I wonder why they didn't opt for making the table out of corflute. It is about the same as cardboard in strength, if not stronger. We is about as much, and as it's plastic water won't affect it at all.
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I wonder why they didn't opt for making the table out of corflute. It is about the same as cardboard in strength, if not stronger. We is about as much, and as it's plastic water won't affect it at all.
I'm asking Matteo right now. He says that the cost for the material would be quite higher. Maybe 50$ more. Of course, in terms of durability it could be a good improvement.
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I still think rock bottom was in this kickstarter:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimdarkforge/miniature-wargaming-flying-assault-butts
See what i did there ;D ;D ;D
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Bum, bum BUUUUM!
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lol lol lol
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WHat the...
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Can you ask if Giorgia coming over in person to set up the table os a possible stretch goal? I'd be quite interested in that.
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You'd get a table with two dents on the surface though...
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You'd get a table with two dents on the surface though...
So people were complaining about the use of the woman with the skimpy t-shirt and now we're making tit jokes? Nothing ironic here at all
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So people were complaining about the use of the woman with the skimpy t-shirt and now we're making tit jokes? Nothing ironic here at all
I didn't complain ;)
They show cars constantly with half naked ladies and we still buy them anyway...
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They show cars constantly with half naked ladies and we still buy them anyway...
1. What car adverts are you shown?
2. Do you buy a car depending on whether it's got an ad with a half-naked lady? Does it make the next few years of expenses and traffic better? What if the car was made of cardboard?
3. Did I take a wrong turn and end up at TMP?
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1. What car adverts are you shown?
2. Do you buy a car depending on whether it's got an ad with a half-naked lady? Does it make the next few years of expenses and traffic better? What if the car was made of cardboard?
3. Did I take a wrong turn and end up at TMP?
1 Lol just type car show in google and look at the first 50 pictures...
i am talking about car fairs and the like, the one here in belgium is half about cars and half about the girls presenting them. It's like a convention for bad 'do you come with the car' jokes... well at least that's my personal feeling about this.
2 If we have a carry-able cardboard car, do we need another car to transport it? o_o
3 I ust mad a joke about dents in the table, nothing else ;D
And i don't visit TMP so most definately not lol
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1. What car adverts are you shown?
I don't watch TV.
Not sure what your point is though.
3. Did I take a wrong turn and end up at TMP?
Well you're rambling and not making a lot of sense so you tell me.
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1. What car adverts are you shown?
Considering that ad people know how to do their job, If they put chicks on ADs maybe it's because it work.
2. Do you buy a car depending on whether it's got an ad with a half-naked lady? Does it make the next few years of expenses and traffic better? What if the car was made of cardboard?
Maybe I don't, but someone does, apparently. Including the cardboard part.
3. Did I take a wrong turn and end up at TMP?
I don't know what's your point in that. Are you suggesting that someone here is having an appropriate behaviour?
So people were complaining about the use of the woman with the skimpy t-shirt and now we're making tit jokes? Nothing ironic here at all
Well, personally i was complaining about the use of the girl, not of her presence. An actractive girl is a pro, but somehow seems that they put here there with not "much sense" of the thing. The result is quite goof to me. But it's just my feeling, and there's nothing morally wrong in that choice in my opinion.
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Guys, if you think that this ad is sexist or exploitative or both (which arguably it is) then I'd suggest you look at in context. Watch an hour or two of Italian television, ideally a game show and see what you think. Oh and think about that elderly gentleman,convicted felon and former Prime Minister currently doing community service in a nursing home and his infamous shenanigans. Most of those TV stations are his by the way.
Personally my tastes are latin influenced so the expansive chest isn't such a great motivator for me. That said, Giorgia is rather pretty and the heavily accented English is rather appealing. I'm still not going to buy an origame cardboard box though.
At least with this you probably get what you see in terms of advertising, unlike the well known wargaming website that tastefully promoted it's 'female' employees as a lure to increase membership. ;)
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<snip>
At least with this you probably get what you see in terms of advertising, unlike the well known wargaming website that tastefully promoted it's 'female' employees as a lure to increase membership. ;)
Okay, what did I miss?
Gracias,
Glenn
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I still think rock bottom was in this kickstarter:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimdarkforge/miniature-wargaming-flying-assault-butts
See what i did there ;D ;D ;D
It funded... ::) o_o :-X
lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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It funded... ::) o_o :-X
and at 2000% !!!
The point is: the idea was simple and silly. the world is large, and people with a particular sense of humor and a few dollars in excess are all over the world.
Long live the internet!
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I will avoid the temptation of quoting PT Barnum...
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I will avoid the temptation of quoting PT Barnum...
please do .. :)
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Okay, what did I miss?
Gracias,
Glenn
Ja, ik ook....
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Ja, ik ook....
TMP who introduced all their female editors is my guess ;)
Je kan niet alles weten hé ;D
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http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/201036.P_T_Barnum
lol
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TMP who introduced all their female editors is my guess ;)
Je kan niet alles weten hé ;D
AH, thanks. A very nice and nice looking young filipina from what I hear.
Gracias,
Glenn
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More than one for that matter...
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In this instance 'Feminine ' might be a technically more accurate descriptor than female, at least if you need a biological label. Female works well enough if you describing gender identity and more power to them I say.
It does make some of the smitten adolescent outpourings of some of the PMT membership more poignant/ amusing in retrospect, if only because it's not difficult to picture the actual gender politics/ outlook of most of them.
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In this instance 'Feminine ' might be a technically more accurate descriptor than female, at least if you need a biological label. Female works well enough if you describing gender identity and more power to them I say.
It does make some of the smitten adolescent outpourings of some of the PMT membership more poignant/ amusing in retrospect, if only because it's not difficult to picture the actual gender politics/ outlook of most of them.
I am clearing missing something on TMP - and it is not John the OFM! Guess I should wander over the "favela" that is TMP and take a look...
Gracias,
Glenn
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Gotta be honest, she wasnt really doing it for me either.....
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I am clearing missing something on TMP - and it is not John the OFM! Guess I should wander over the "favela" that is TMP and take a look...
Gracias,
Glenn
Excuse me, I have friends who live in 'favelas'. Please don't tar them with the brush of TMP.
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Excuse me, I have friends who live in 'favelas'. Please don't tar them with the brush of TMP.
Okay.
Spent a fair amount of time researching 'neighborhoods' (including favelas and barrios and trying to explain how those terms relate to neighborhoods for some in the IC) for work and there certainly are some common themes geographically speaking for these features.
Could be spending a lot of time working Latin America Issues of safety and security in the next year plus...
Edit: I expect a lot of Latin American terms to creep into my spoken and written everyday usage...
Gracias,
Glenn
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Rock Bottom... :-I
Nope...
There's plenty of creative silly/weird* stuff and concepts getting funded, but there are decent games and useful things: Audatia and the Quickey, for instance.
*On Indiegogo, the Autoblow 2: A Realistic Robotic Oral Sex Simulator For Men has received 344% funding for what looks like a Dyson... :o For those who ask, I didn't search for it, it's the first item under the Trending Now section on the front page - one can't ignore it without bookimarking specific campaigns.
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*On Indiegogo, the Autoblow 2: A Realistic Robotic Oral Sex Simulator For Men has received 344% funding for what looks like a Dyson... :o For those who ask, I didn't search for it, it's the first item under the Trending Now section on the front page - one can't ignore it without bookimarking specific campaigns.
Of course a Dyson can do it all without a bag.
Also, I tend to only empty my vacuum cleaner about once every half dozen uses. I'll leave it there.
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And then there's Kickstarters like this (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1486582757/one-mile-at-a-time-the-etihad-residences)
::) lol ::)
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And then there's Kickstarters like this (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1486582757/one-mile-at-a-time-the-etihad-residences)
::) lol ::)
That reminds me, i have to set up my kickstarter to review a beach in Hawaii...
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And then there's Kickstarters like this (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1486582757/one-mile-at-a-time-the-etihad-residences)
::) lol ::)
The fact that a fair number of people have actually backed that is frightening.
I see an urgent need for a review of the Copacabana palace or the Fasano for the duration of the World Cup.
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The fact that a fair number of people have actually backed that is frightening.
I see an urgent need for a review of the Copacabana palace or the Fasano for the duration of the World Cup.
There are so many crooks out there....
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The fact that a fair number of people have actually backed that is frightening.
...Just read the comments! Are people that empty-headed? Really? :o
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There are so many crooks out there....
I wouldn't call the guy a crook as he is being incredibly upfront about what he is promising, and it seems like an easily fulfilled goal. Its not like he is pulling a defiance games or whatnot and wasting people's money without delivering on promises (so long as he actually books the flight and reviews it).
It's more the fault of the backers for giving their money away. At least nobody can say they are don't know what they are pledging towards.
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To be (somewhat) fair to the guy, he appears to have a long history of paying for 1st-class flights on his own dime (or with points) and then writing reviews about the service, reviews his backers seem to think are funny. So I get the idea some backers may have of "Pay a poor guy to crash a rich-guy party".
But it's still pretty silly.
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My guess is that he's either seeded it with family and friends or his own cash. I simply cannot believe there are folk stupid enough to donate. Hey for $10 I'll say thanks, for $50 I'll even lash out and send you an email. Hmm...what do you call someone who sock pupets their own KS? A Kockstarter or a Kicksucker?
There's the germ of an idea for Christmas or birthdays. You want 'X' so you let it be known you have a KS up and running and you want funding. Best to aim for a low $ goal in that case, I suppose.
For the record I don't think he's a crook either, he just has a brass neck.
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Perhaps 'crook' was a slight mischaracterization, perhaps 'brass balls' would have been better. I think I'd be too humiliated to beg for money like this....
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'Brass balls' is a new one for me, but I think it works in this case :D
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There's the germ of an idea for Christmas or birthdays. You want 'X' so you let it be known you have a KS up and running and you want funding.
...and you don't mind KS taking 10% off the top...
If only family and friends are likely to contribute, there are better alternatives.
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Ah, knew there was a flaw to that cunning plan. That and the overwhelming likelihood that my wife would run her own KS and I would still end (temporarily) up with something she wants and knows that I don't. :-[
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And then there's Kickstarters like this (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1486582757/one-mile-at-a-time-the-etihad-residences)
::) lol ::)
Ben Schlapping... What a fucking tool...
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$12K is a great effort. I've only scraped up 2K
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Ben Schlapping... What a fucking tool...
I love it ... no attempt at reasonable, logical feedback ... just a swift (and probably accurate) summing up of his entire character. You're my new hero.
You've gotta love people who have photos of themselves looking away from the camera.
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A perfect example of brevity and accuracy combined.
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He left out a "passion" - traveling on other people's money. ::)
On my list of people I never want to meet.
Gracias,
Glenn
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He left out a "passion" - traveling on other people's money. ::)
On my list of people I never want to meet.
Gracias,
Glenn
I too have a stomach turning revulsion for parasites.
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Al Quaeda was a crowd funded start up and look where they are now. Of course you have to put in the hard yards to build brand recognition just like any successful business :)
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Ben Schlapping... What a fucking tool...
Someone will have to PM me with a bit more history on this person.
Grimm
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Someone will have to PM me with a bit more history on this person.
Grimm
Follow the link to his KS, and just read the previous reviews he lists in his KS blurb. Should tell you all you need to know. ;)
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SURPRISE! It didnt fund.....
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4thwar/4thwar-equipment-wargaming-table
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i really don't understand your anger against this company... however, their poor marketing strategy and high prices were a killer for a good kickstarter, i'd say that this defeat is reasonable.
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My 'anger'? Hardly. It's just as a consumer I feel a bit peeved when I see a vendor asking for $100.00 for what is essentially a cardboard table.... Especially when most people know that they can pick up a legit folding table for $50.00. I have nothing personal against these folks, but it does seem like a rip and from a consumer POV, it's nice to see this kind of drek rejected in the marketplace. I think that kind of feedback is not only a message to the vendor about their particular product,but to the KS community in general that consumers expect quality and quantity for their money, not quantities....
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Personally, I am surprised they raised that much. $57k??? o_o
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The cardboard tables are back for another go.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4thwar/4thwar-equipment-wargaming-tables-returns?ref=nav_search
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So they went from needing 99k to 13k ???
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Funded pretty darn quick.
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Funded pretty darn quick.
13k from 95 backers. So their revised plan is 15% of the funding previously???
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Looks like they basically limited deliveries of the actual table to EU only. But otherwise the prices seem to be the same.
So what was so much off in the initial calculations, one wonders...
Well, somebody seems to want it and now they are (hopefully) going to get it.
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They have cut down on the beewbs a bit, that might have saved a few bucks..?
Looks like it will fund this time round. Good for them.
But I still really cannot see the need for this product. I have never had a problem with a lack of table. Only with a lack of things to put on the table.
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So what was so much off in the initial calculations, one wonders...
From the kickstarter page:
"Quitting, sadly, the mass shipping to the USA for tables give us the possibility to reduce 39% of the goal; the remaining 47% of the goal reduction is given from our really friendly suppliers wich have understand our "situation" and decreased their minimum of order."
The minimum order thing makes sense to me though. If the supplier they work with says 'i will only manufacture these if you order at least XXX copies' , then you have to have money for XXX copies. If the supplier halfs that initial 'print' run, you obviously only need half of the original production budget.
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The minimum order thing makes sense to me though.
Yes, I agree with that, though it's more like cutting the minimum run to one quarter.
But the US shipping thing seems weird. They budgeted $40,000 or so to ship a container full of cardboard to US? Is this because of some stupid KS rule that US pledges must include shipping?
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And don't forget, if your pledge includes shipping, would kickstarter then take a percentage of the shipping for themselves??
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And don't forget, if your pledge includes shipping, would kickstarter then take a percentage of the shipping for themselves??
Ofcourse they do.
Every time someone gathers a cool million for their super project and needs to work their a$$ off to make it real and keep the backers happy...
...Kickstarter collects $100K essentially just for keeping a website up.
But my point was more about the KS rule that you can't charge US backers extra for shipping, the basic pledge amount should include US shipping. Which results in kinda backwards situations when the producer is actually somewhere else. (They may have changed/relaxed this rule lately)
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actually, it's not 10% their fee, quite less.
And they do not only keep a website, but they offer a marketing and business solution that is extremely effective! ^_^
For the us shipping, KS is meant to be for US only, so it makes sense for now. They are all italian but the company is based in US, they should have thought about that, before promoting a 100% italian product! :S
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War Gamer with Good Idea not = business professional.
I see a lot less people opening game shops without a well thought out business plan today. Considering past history, having a viable business plan is a good idea in itself!
Gracias,
Glenn
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War Gamer with Good Idea not = business professional.
I see a lot less people opening game shops without a well thought out business plan today. Considering past history, having a viable business plan is a good idea in itself!
Gracias,
Glenn
SO TRUE.
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It happens all over that people think that having a product they think people will want is the same as having the guarantee of being successful. I've seen a good few hard working people throw money down the drain for making naive decisions and not acting like business people.
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I've lost count of the number of game stores I've seen run into the ground after being opened by gamers who had a few bucks with which to open a business.
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I've lost count of the number of game stores I've seen run into the ground after being opened by gamers who had a few bucks with which to open a business.
As i always say, the right to have a job is not the same of the right to have a successiful business...
They decided to invest money without being competent, they fall. Sad but fair.
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I've lost count of the number of game stores I've seen run into the ground after being opened by gamers who had a few bucks with which to open a business.
... that revolved round their hobby.
There's no problem in that, but they mostly see the hobby side and not the bussiness side :?
I've seen 3 game stores and 1 modelling store go bankrupt here in Ghent over the years.
Worst one was the modelling shop. Guy had to take out a loan after his first year to be able to continue and again after his second year! I mean, come on, wasn't it obvious the first time ?
Yet, whenever stuff got delivered there was something he ordered for himself...
Guy didn't even have a home. he lived in that (small) store, sleeping bag in the back and only a toilet and small storage space o_o
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KS isn't free US shipping. It is free domestic shipping. If you start your project in the US then you include shipping for "free" (included in the pledge price) for the US. If your start one in the UK you have UK "free" shipping. It is domestic shipping that you include into your pledge price.
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Yep. Hobby knowledge does not equate to business knowledge and too few people understand that.
Of course, even successful businessfolk need to try and sometimes fail.
As i always say, the right to have a job is not the same of the right to have a successiful business...
They decided to invest money without being competent, they fall. Sad but fair.
Over here in North America, you don't have the right to a job either. Maybe the right to grovel. Maybe. But I'm straying into politics, so I'll just leave it at that...
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actually, it's not 10% their fee, quite less.
Ok, it's 5% for KS plus 3-5% for Amazon payments, 8-10% total. In US, UK is same + VAT.
Effectively, you're looking at having roughly 90% of the money you collected actually on your bank account.
Yes, KS is effective but is also a lucrative low risk operation. There wouldn't be competitors popping up left right and center if it wasn't...
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To add to the above (at least for NZ based KS) KS fee of 5% The payment processing fee is also 3% plus 20c for pledges over $10 or for under $10 5%+5c so. It can be over 10% in fees not all going to KS.
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People obviously think it (KS, starting a small business,) is going to work to achieve what they want. Otherwise they wouldn't do it. Reality is a process that can teach lessons but I find many people reject the reality because it doesn't meet their false beliefs.
Gracias,
Glenn
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<snip>
Over here in North America, you don't have the right to a job either. Maybe the right to grovel. Maybe. But I'm straying into politics, so I'll just leave it at that...
This is the statement that spurred my last comment but too take it any further is indeed politics. ;) :)
Gracias,
Glenn
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Then again, sometimes, although not very often, a ballsy move does pay off! But I would not use that as my business plan! :P
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad
that man understood everything. Max respect.
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad
Genius. That's one thing you have to concede about Tony Reidy, he always manages to bounce back with a new business venture.
;)
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Reality is a process that can teach lessons but I find many people reject the reality because it doesn't meet their false beliefs.
Great line Glenn!
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I may on board if someone does a Waldorf Salad KS.
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad
Hat ! He's doing a hat :o
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad
Looks good :) but my wife's looks better :-* (or did before we ate it all for 4th of July.) lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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Great line Glenn!
Learned much too often first hand... ::)
I just try to make each mistake a new and different one. lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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Looks good :) but my wife's looks better :-*
That's what I thought about the Italian bird in the skimpy vest.
As a (former) salesman, one of the most important parts of a transaction was to literally 'ask for the sale'. There's no point presenting a desirable something to a potential customer if all they do is like it and then wander away with their money. If someone can ask for the sale, without actually having anything to sell (except perhaps the hat), and people are willing to part with their money all the same ... well good luck to them for some ballsy risk taking.
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad
Would not back this. Doesn't look very promising, guy has obviously no experience in making potato salad.
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He has made a hell of a lot of cash! Well done!
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Get ready for a tidal wave of copycat Kickstarters. For $46K (and counting) I don't blame them a bit.
I remember years back someone who put and advert in 'Private Eye' magazine in the UK saying he'd like to be a millionaire and asking for donations. The guy was inundated with money and he put a special thank-you out to an anonymous donor who gave him half a million pounds!
If you can do it and no-one gets hurt, why not?
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I am not sure if this is the right place to post this. But I am sure a mod will move it then..
I just saw this new kickstarter.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/4thwar/4thwar-equipment-wargaming-table
It is a cardboard gaming table!? And it is being marketed by a rather largebreasted woman.
For a long time I have felt that kickstarter was being used and abused by people with projects that did not really need a kickstarter. Why for instance are Reaper, CMON and Mantic doing kickstarter, they are large established companies. When they have a project they should just do it. They only use kickstarter as a an anvertising tool and to take pre orders. And I don't think that was the original idea behind kickstarter.
And then there are people with halfbaked completely unoriginal ideas who try and raise money for yet another dungeon crawl/zombie apocalypse game and swear that it is completely different from the hundreds of other similar games out there.
But with this particular campaign I kind of feel like a new low has been hit.
This is far worse:
http://kotaku.com/how-a-successful-kickstarter-lost-half-a-million-dollar-1608877998
'nuf said.
Gracias,
Glenn
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What's interesting about that situation is that it's actually closer to KS's original intent - crowdsourcing startup seed money for new ventures.
The failure is in this case one of incompetence rather than intent, but still serves as a warning to people to read terms carefully.
KS has become an odd mix of things. Sometimes you're just funding a new project from an established company too small (or lazy) to front the cash for a big new product. That's when KS is more like a preorder. Sometimes you're genuinely funding something entirely new. That's when KS is more like an investment. It can be hard for people to tell the two situations apart and there's very little recourse if you get things wrong - so be careful!
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FramFramson,
When I think of all the times I have, (in the past, I consciously try and avoid this today, except ::) for M-i-i-i-i-i-c-e in S-p-a-a-a-a-a-c-e!,) jumped on a/an <insert project> only to see it produce a product that underwhelms the company making the effort to produce what people say they want (then don't buy - at all or less than they projected,) I think some niche product (see above,) kick starters are exactly what companies need to be sure they are making a product where they profit.
Gracias,
Glenn
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One of my pet peeves is when people talk about the trials and tribulations of their private life as an excuse for business failures. That's what your personal Facebook account is for. We all suffer setbacks and small tragedies in our life, it is not a valid reason for business failings and frankly a customer should not be expected to swallow it, nor even be exposed to it.
If you cannot separate your private and work life and don't understand the difference between a 'woe is me' moan and a business statement to an investor, you are simply piling failure upon failure.
Your loved ones are there to give you sympathy and a cuddle, your customers are there to give you money. It is inappropriate to treat one like the other. This is why it's also a really bad idea to have family and friends invest in a business venture.
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One of my pet peeves is when people talk about the trials and tribulations of their private life as an excuse for business failures. That's what your personal Facebook account is for. We all suffer setbacks and small tragedies in our life, it is not a valid reason for business failings and frankly a customer should not be expected to swallow it, nor even be exposed to it.<snip>
Possibly not in this case, but I do think my wife getting terminal cancer, or my kids dying in an airplane disaster, or my getting deployed to Afghanistan, or some other major disruptive event in a life might derail a project. The honorable/correct <even if not legally mandated> thing to do, if possible, is to refund as far as possible the funds people invested in your failed project.
IMHO.
YMMV.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Possibly not in this case, but I do think my wife getting terminal cancer, or my kids dying in an airplane disaster, or my getting deployed to Afghanistan, or some other major disruptive event in a life might derail a project. The honorable/correct <even if not legally mandated> thing to do, if possible, is to refund as far as possible the funds people invested in your failed project.
IMHO.
YMMV.
Gracias,
Glenn
i agree with this.
But basically, what he wrote was "we finished the money, then i continue working for free so hard that my wife left me". The tragic event is a side effect, not the cause of the failure.
What he said was basically "i'm incompetent and i messed up, but i'm not dishonest".
Which is something, imho, but not enough to justify the mess.
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Perhaps I worded that poorly. I'm not arguing that your private life won't affect your work life, nor that a disaster in the one isn't a valid excuse for failure in the other. I'm just saying it's inappropriate to be using those details in a business statement and it smacks of a lack of professionalism, which is hardly what a disgruntled customer is going to want.
Tell 'em where the money is, tell 'em where the project is, tell 'em relevant business details and most importantly, tell 'em what you're going to do about it.
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I got what you said.
I like the expression "that sounds like a personal problem to me" when people moan about why something didn't get done, and it's not for relevant reasons. My dog died, my mom got the cancer, uncle bob is a woman, fuck who cares. Get the job done - and leave the drama to the television types. It's that simple.
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It worth pointing out that this is Kickstarter - these people are often amateurs, with experience of business plans or other such professional things. I find it harder to come down on folks like that because they really did have no idea what they were getting themselves into.
That's where a backer needs to understand that they are backing a high risk project. Caveat Emptor! Amateurs are pretty easy to spot, the biggest flag being no previously completed project.
As far as refunds go, if the money's gone, it's usually gone. Been paid out as salaries, or blown on an overseas manufacturer who dicked them around (oh the nightmares I've heard from folks thinking "... and we'll just get a factory in China to produce it cheaply!"), or frittered away in any of the thousand ways a business neophyte can lose their shirt.
If the project was actually conducted in good faith (i.e. salaries and suppliers were actually paid and the money wasn't just embezzled), I find it hard to justify punitive action. I mean, this is the whole original idea behind Kickstarter - amateur, crowd-sourced, venture capital. That's risky stuff!
The confusion comes in where people think that projects on Kickstarter are guaranteed, which has become a problem due to established companies using Kickstarter as a lazy preorder system. In my mind, it's much more that Kickstarter is to blame for this state of affairs than any individual creator, since they are obscuring the risk involved in a project by taking a hands-off approach to risk assessment, by letting large established players muddy the waters, and refusing to provide any sort of ranking for risk, which gives investors a false sense of security.
I think that what Kickstarter should be doing is assigning a two, three, or even five-tier risk category. Example:
(1 - Greatest Risk) A new project from an untested creator with no history, with a large or ambitious financial goal (say anything over $25,000)
(2 - Moderate risk) Any project from a small creator or company with at least one previous successful project. Any new project from an untested creator with no history, with a modest financial goal (under $25,000)
(3 - Low risk) Any project from a large established player
To be fair to Kickstarter, this may be a liability issue, where if they pass a risk judgement on something they will be liable. But I'm not sure if that would be true if the categories were broad, simple, and applied by basic rules (as in my example above), rather than an individual doing analysis.
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It worth pointing out that this is Kickstarter - these people are often amateurs, with experience of business plans or other such professional things. I find it harder to come down on folks like that because they really did have no idea what they were getting themselves into.
That's where a backer needs to understand that they are backing a high risk project. Caveat Emptor! Amateurs are pretty easy to spot, the biggest flag being no previously completed project.
As far as refunds go, if the money's gone, it's usually gone. Been paid out as salaries, or blown on an overseas manufacturer who dicked them around (oh the nightmares I've heard from folks thinking "... and we'll just get a factory in China to produce it cheaply!"), or frittered away in any of the thousand ways a business neophyte can lose their shirt.
If the project was actually conducted in good faith (i.e. salaries and suppliers were actually paid and the money wasn't just embezzled), I find it hard to justify punitive action. I mean, this is the whole original idea behind Kickstarter - amateur, crowd-sourced, venture capital. That's risky stuff!
The confusion comes in where people think that projects on Kickstarter are guaranteed, which has become a problem due to established companies using Kickstarter as a lazy preorder system. In my mind, it's much more that Kickstarter is to blame for this state of affairs than any individual creator, since they are obscuring the risk involved in a project by taking a hands-off approach to risk assessment, by letting large established players muddy the waters, and refusing to provide any sort of ranking for risk, which gives investors a false sense of security.
I think that what Kickstarter should be doing is assigning a two, three, or even five-tier risk category. Example:
(1 - Greatest Risk) A new project from an untested creator with no history, with a large or ambitious financial goal (say anything over $25,000)
(2 - Moderate risk) Any project from a small creator or company with at least one previous successful project. Any new project from an untested creator with no history, with a modest financial goal (under $25,000)
(3 - Low risk) Any project from a large established player
To be fair to Kickstarter, this may be a liability issue, where if they pass a risk judgement on something they will be liable. But I'm not sure if that would be true if the categories were broad, simple, and applied by basic rules (as in my example above), rather than an individual doing analysis.
The only problem I have with this analysis is that this is not VC money, there is no 'investment' per say, as there is no equity for pledgers. If KS was an equity program, then yes I see a 'risk in investing', but KS is more a preorder system. At the end of the day, the owners have all the equity, so I see absolutely no reason not to litigate if someone feels they have been defrauded. Otherwise it's just too easy for the owners not to practice due diligence. This may sound harsh, but I've made the comment before on other KSs and 'small businesses', a KS or small business still has a duty and really don't deserve extra slack.
That written, pledgers should also practice due diligence, if only to save themselves a potential headache or mitigated loss.
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I think that it's a bit of a grey area. Not all VC's or investments result in straight equity - some takes the form of bonds, etc. (especially when an established company is trying to raise funds), so the expectation is of a profit and not equity. In KS's case, the bond analogy loosely fits because you expect a return (your loot), but not direct equity.
At the risk of repeating myself, Kickstarter's original sales pitch was (and still is, to some extent) essentially crowd-sourced investing. This may not be particularly truthful, but I suspect that the waters being so muddy is very much the way Kickstarter wants things.
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I think that it's a bit of a grey area. Not all VC's or investments result in straight equity - some takes the form of bonds, etc. (especially when an established company is trying to raise funds), so the expectation is of a profit and not equity. In KS's case, the bond analogy loosely fits because you expect a return (your loot), but not direct equity.
At the risk of repeating myself, Kickstarter's original sales pitch was (and still is, to some extent) essentially crowd-sourced investing. This may not be particularly truthful, but I suspect that the waters being so muddy is very much the way Kickstarter wants things.
I do TOTALLY agree with you that they need to assume more responsibility, even if its just ratings, to weed out or evaluate KS projects. I think that if people are not held, or at least potentially held liable for their KS project, we'll have more of the Cthulu/Monopoly fiasco, or the latest one with the video game.
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Cubs,
I grant you that this case was pure amatuer disaster in the making (epic business failure ruining a relationship) and not a case of the personal disaster causing the business failure. Not a lot of sympathy or empathy (other than "There but for the grace of God go I...") for these KS owners. I always approach thes KS with a great deal of dread/concern unless it is an established company using KS. This is just a textbook case about how not to succeed at business...
Gracias,
Glenn
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Sangennaru,
Well said and pretty much sums up my view. Like my kids, my empathy for their screw-ups makes me feel for them but natural consequences should be allowed to happen as a result of bad judgment. Happened to me more than once. Even I eventually learned. ;)
Gracias,
Glenn
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I do TOTALLY agree with you that they need to assume more responsibility, even if its just ratings, to weed out or evaluate KS projects. I think that if people are not held, or at least potentially held liable for their KS project, we'll have more of the Cthulu/Monopoly fiasco, or the latest one with the video game.
If I see
1) an established company with good recored or
2) a proven track record of multiple other successful KSs or
3) possibly a track record of both success and backing other successful KS efforts
Then I am more likely to jump onboard.
Even then I limit my money to thinks I can actually use include in my limited hobby budget. I have had a few fail to achieve the goal and that is sad but it reminds me that not all ideas I like are financially viable.
So far, no epic fails...
Gracias,
Glenn
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This is the volte-face of the KS ideal though isn't it. Originally for small outfits to fund small projects which otherwise wouldn't see the light of day now for established companies to run a pre-order campaign. Bit of a shame.
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Well, c'est la vie innit? It's why programmes like 'Dragon's Den' and the whole concept of the business pitch exist, because people with good ideas sometimes don't have the capital or nous to get them off the ground.
It doesn't stop established businesses having to pitch their own ideas, either to outside backers or to their own boardroom, in order to get the cash and/or spread the risk. A rookie entrepreneur is always going to be flying by the seat of their pants in a high risk/high reward game.
I've always worked (on a business level) on the principle of honesty without overloading the customer with irrelevant information (judgement call on that) and trying to maintain a business relationship instead of a friendship. Now that's not to say that some of my business contacts aren't considered friends by me, it's just that I try to put an invisible prophylactic between informal and formal interactions. Perhaps that make me robotic and a tad artificial sounding sometimes, but I do find it helps to separate things and seems to be appreciated. I also try to under-promise in order to over-achieve, or at least avoid disappointment if things go awry.
I'm still unsure as to the safeguards for a KS backer. Are there any at all? Some people seem to be saying you can claim your money back for a failed venture, some people seem to be saying you can't. Are there conditions? is it legally enforceable or still a grey area?
Personally the only one I've backed (or felt like backing) was the Redbox Games Njorns one, and that's because I've dealt with Tre Manor before, trust him and love his work. This despite the fact that his previous KS ventures didn't go as planned, because shit happens sometimes.
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Well, c'est la vie innit? It's why programmes like 'Dragon's Den' and the whole concept of the business pitch exist, because people with good ideas sometimes don't have the capital or nous to get them off the ground.
It doesn't stop established businesses having to pitch their own ideas, either to outside backers or to their own boardroom, in order to get the cash and/or spread the risk. A rookie entrepreneur is always going to be flying by the seat of their pants in a high risk/high reward game.
I've always worked (on a business level) on the principle of honesty without overloading the customer with irrelevant information (judgement call on that) and trying to maintain a business relationship instead of a friendship. Now that's not to say that some of my business contacts aren't considered friends by me, it's just that I try to put an invisible prophylactic between informal and formal interactions. Perhaps that make me robotic and a tad artificial sounding sometimes, but I do find it helps to separate things and seems to be appreciated. I also try to under-promise in order to over-achieve, or at least avoid disappointment if things go awry.
I'm still unsure as to the safeguards for a KS backer. Are there any at all? Some people seem to be saying you can claim your money back for a failed venture, some people seem to be saying you can't. Are there conditions? is it legally enforceable or still a grey area?
Personally the only one I've backed (or felt like backing) was the Redbox Games Njorns one, and that's because I've dealt with Tre Manor before, trust him and love his work. This despite the fact that his previous KS ventures didn't go as planned, because shit happens sometimes.
Cubs, very well put, all the way around. As to getting ones money back, according to the article about that recently canceled video game, they cited KS policy that the Creator is liable to deliver the goods promised. I'm certainly no attorney, but at the least it could constitute a breach, or otherwise open the Creator up to liability for not delivering. Now, again, I'm no attorney, but who would have standing to sue? KS with whom the first contract is made with, or the backers who actually were left unwhole? Would KS have to taken action in the name of the backers? Or would the backers have standing regardless of whom the 'contract' was made with?
There are of course, other avenues. At the end of October I was in the KS that did custom heads of yourself (yeah, dont know what I was thinking). They were due to be delivered by the end of December. By the end of April, I sort of understood that A) they were having major problems and B) those who did get their 'head', complained bitterly about the result. So I contacted my credit card company and they said that since the delivery was due within 90 days, I could get a charge-back. So that ended well.
I took part in the Winter War KS and evidently my minis have been sent multiple times, the parcels just never seem to make it to my house.... I was not in for very much, but it is still irritating.
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One thing to keep in mind is that there's a very crucial difference between winning a lawsuit and actually collecting.
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One thing to keep in mind is that there's a very crucial difference between winning a lawsuit and actually collecting.
True, but who wants to walk around with a lien or worse? I'd imagine being sued and losing in some sort of malfeasance case would make it rather difficult to pursue a new venture in the future.
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To your credit, you're thinking like someone with a vested interest in remaining a fully functioning member of society and not like a scofflaw happy to take the money and run.
Liens cost money. Very few people will bother once it comes to that and they've seen they wont get a dime.
In my former line of work I constantly observed saw the small time scammers who spend their lives living on ill-gotten gains. They rarely have a cent to their names to claim. Even when they do have a house or car of their own, it'll be in someone else's name, all perfectly legal and on paper they're little more than squatters aided by sympathetic family or friends.
Now, I expect that failed Kickstarters are the result of incompetence far more often than not (though there certainly have been some real scams on KS), but in that case it's often young folks without assets. The end result is the same: They have nothing to collect.
People win all sorts of judgments all the time in Small Claims Courts. Whether they actually get anything for their trouble or not is a very different matter.
As for a bad reputation sticking to a repeat offender, well, you can always delegate someone else to be your project lead or simply obfuscate. That's been done plenty of times too. Scammers are professionals at finding loopholes or changing their information enough to keep going - that's their real job.
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To your credit, you're thinking like someone with a vested interest in remaining a fully functioning member of society and not like a scofflaw happy to take the money and run.
Liens cost money. Very few people will bother once it comes to that and they've seen they wont get a dime.
In my former line of work I constantly observed saw the small time scammers who spend their lives living on ill-gotten gains. They rarely have a cent to their names to claim. Even when they do have a house or car of their own, it'll be in someone else's name, all perfectly legal and on paper they're little more than squatters aided by sympathetic family or friends.
Now, I expect that failed Kickstarters are the result of incompetence far more often than not (though there certainly have been some real scams on KS), but in that case it's often young folks without assets. The end result is the same: They have nothing to collect.
People win all sorts of judgments all the time in Small Claims Courts. Whether they actually get anything for their trouble or not is a very different matter.
As for a bad reputation sticking to a repeat offender, well, you can always delegate someone else to be your project lead or simply obfuscate. That's been done plenty of times too. Scammers are professionals at finding loopholes or changing their information enough to keep going - that's their real job.
I have an exbrother in law who lives like this, I just could not imagine such a low and petty life. But you're right, there are people who screw others over and sleep like babies at night.
I would certainly not sue in every case, and I wonder if due to the relatively low average pledge amount ( I mean under a few thousand), a small claims action is best. Even just to feel better. I keep thinking of that monopoly game mostly...of which I was not part of.
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Some of them sleep like babies. Those are the scariest ones. Others make up rationalizations to tell themselves like "They deserved it." or "I'm a Robin Hood!" (notwithstanding the fact that they're only giving to themselves). Still others have no mind about it at all - like a hunted dog, they just seem to do whatever it takes to escape their current crisis (and the lives of such are almost always one long perpetual crisis), no matter that it gets them into a worse one ten minutes later.
I'm actually amazed there isn't more blatant scamming on Kickstarter considering how perfect it is for this sort of thing. There's minimal oversight; the internet forms a nice barrier for tracing you; it'll be months before you have to produces anything so your getaway time is huge; losses of a few hundred are very rarely enough to spur legal action and having everyone across the world makes it vastly more difficult for victims to mount concerted group action; and best of all, if you post up a few credible fake updates you might just make the whole thing look like a legitimate project that went sour.
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I find different crooks have their different specialties.
But in any case, crime isn't all about masterminds with a good idea. Loads of them do dumb things that "seemed like a good idea at the time"! I'm just pointing out that on the surface of things, a phoney Kickstarter might be very attractive to a particular type of con.
I can see this being especially attractive to the kind of university-educated internet twenty-something who doesn't have a great network of stuff going on yet. The kind that think they're hot shit. lol
It also occurred to me just now that a KS campaign would be a pretty good way to launder money.
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Ah, man, now I need to think about that professionally... then have it dismissed by superiors derisively if I actually mentioned it...
My gut says that there are holes big enough to drive truck through in that idea. But it isn't my AOI so I will leave others to comment on that...
Back to the OP, no, KS still can descend to "greatness" in my mind but we have explored some serious contenders in usually non-specific forms so far.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I find different crooks have their different specialties.
Back in the late 80's a mate of mine used to photocopy five pound notes then colour them in with coloured pencils. He'd go to different amusement arcades and use them at the kiosk to get change. The lighting in the arcade was so poor, no-one ever noticed they were dodgy and he always got away with it.
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Milk Bar Owner??
Gracias,
Glenn
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Milk Bar Owner??
Gracias,
Glenn
to filly with your droogs
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to filly with your droogs
lol
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how long did it take him to colour in the fiver?
People try to pass colour photocopied notes around here all the time. The milk bar owner up the road gets a few attempts by low rent crooks a year at it. Money here has a plastic feel though so its hard to pass off. He busts them at it and they run away.
Back to kickstarter I think the amount of fraudy kick starts will for at least the short term be small. Failures always present and people losing money yes but to organised scams no so much as to poor business people.
For every Al Capone pillaging and plundering the interwebs there is 1000 defiance games like companies blowing other peoples money and failing.
For sure. The number of plain old idiots will vastly outnumber deliberate crooks.
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Which is what kiwis call a dairy
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In Australia, thats what you call the corner store you get cig milk and newspapes
Yes, but don't you also have milk in a bag in Australia?
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Yes, but don't you also have milk in a bag in Australia?
Funnily enough we had milk in a bag. I think you can still get it like that. You had a special container to put the bag in so you could use it to just tip straight from the bag.
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how long did it take him to colour in the fiver?
So long I wondered why he did it, but back then a fiver could buy you five pints, so ...
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In Canada most milk is bagged. You toss the bag in a pitcher and snip a corner off to pour it out:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/handsomepete2/milk10.jpg)
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In Canada most milk is bagged. You toss the bag in a pitcher and snip a corner off to pour it out:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/handsomepete2/milk10.jpg)
I dont cant drink milk... :(
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Haven't seen bagged milk in years! Are you one of those East Coasterly types? :)
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Nope, that's just wrong! all kinds of wrong. it's so utterly alien to me to think of milk in a bag.
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An udder is kind of like a bag :P
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An udder is kind of like a bag :P
Which is why we decant it into a good english bottle, as is the proper manner for a gentleman to store his milk.
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you still have milkmen in the UK!?!
your bored housewives must be the happiest in the world
Do you not?
I'm a busy man, the milkman picks up the slack so i can get to miniatures.
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Yeah, there's a few still around. We had the milk delivered for a short while a couple of years back, but the feckwits were unable to understand concepts like "We're away next week so don't deliver any milk". The sight of half a dozen bottles of cottage cheese apparently wasn't enough of a hint to check their order book.
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Just came across this nice little article today, from a game developer offering a very candid post-mortem of his company's kickstarter-funded game: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=23830
Haven't seen bagged milk in years! Are you one of those East Coasterly types? :)
Ontar-iari-o
Also, you can get fancy-pants milk in bottles here from high end organic grocery stores. I bought some to get the bottle! I wanted a water bottle to keep in the fridge and that was absolutely perfect. No plastic, no steel, just proper solid glass. Plus the fancy-pants local organic milk was actually pretty tasty.
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That's an interesting read there Fram.
I think anything work do for love comes at a price, the price being less money (or no money). If you can find work that you love and it pays well, you have found the promised land my friend. I have nothing but admiration for someone who ploughs themselves into something body and soul and takes a risk - sometimes it succeeds, sometimes it doesn't.
One the most rewarding decisions I ever made was to become a professional painter ten years ago and I have never regretted it. However, my income plummeted and it is the wife's wages that keep us afloat. Mine is less than minimum wage and little more than pocket-money. It's why I appreciate the publicity and attention, because there's precious little cash to appreciate!
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No i think your mostly right, you'll get scammers everywhere. But then again you get fools everywhere too.
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I reckon we'll get to the stage where there won't be separate computers, TV's and tablets in the home, there's just be screens in several rooms and you will be able to use them for any number of purposes.
Also, some women will be allowed to drive cars.
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Scammers have well and truly moved on airbnb. It's another one of those things that has a temporary cachet of 'responsible' community based yahdeyah. I almost wet myself a while back when some dippy hippy posted on his travel blog that using airbnb was somehow morally superior and a better way of ensuring that locals in developing countries maximised their profits. I must admit, it was fun bursting his balloon by pointing out that.
1) The likely users of airbnb in Brazil were mostly wealthy individuals with a spare investment property to lease out at inflated rates to tourists.
2) The overwhelming majority of hotels, including chain hotels in the country were locally owned and employed a lot more locals than the folk with a spare apartment to rent. People for whom the income was vital not optional
3) Airbnb is now a very, very large company with a listed worth of $10 billion plus and it takes a cut of all rentals. That's money going back to the USA.
4) It allows well off individuals to indulge in the black economy more readily.
5) It's actively undermining jobs in the hospitality industry that thousands of low paid employees rely on, maids, porters, receptionists, cleaners, etc etc
I do like the fact that the new logo appears to be a stylistic dick and balls. Says it all IMO.
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Just booked a place with Airbnb, never heard of them before, in Copenhagen. My fiance said 2x that she was worried with the reservation.... I figured, I paid with my cc, so if there's a problem, I have that to fall back on. Should I be worried??
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Probably not but there was a rash of people booking with Airbnb over the world cup, who had their bookings cancelled at the last minute when the property owners realised just what the market would bear and there have been a number of reported scams as well as the usual property not as described routine.
On the other side of the ledger, there are two outstanding stories of users biting the hand of the property holder. The guy who rented out a New York apartment and staged a bizarre open house orgy. The owner returned unexpectedly and walked in on it. His body corporate tried to evict him and months later he was still getting calls about bizarre sex acts from would be attendees. Then there's the woman in Palm Springs whose tenant failed to pay, ran up massive utilities bills for which she is liable and then proceeded to sue her for defamation. Apparently months later she still can't get him out.
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Probably not but there was a rash of people booking with Airbnb over the world cup, who had their bookings cancelled at the last minute when the property owners realised just what the market would bear and there have been a number of reported scams as well as the usual property not as described routine.
On the other side of the ledger, there are two outstanding stories of users biting the hand of the property holder. The guy who rented out a New York apartment and staged a bizarre open house orgy. The owner returned unexpectedly and walked in on it. His body corporate tried to evict him and months later he was still getting calls about bizarre sex acts from would be attendees. Then there's the woman in Palm Springs whose tenant failed to pay, ran up massive utilities bills for which she is liable and then proceeded to sue her for defamation. Apparently months later she still can't get him out.
Yikes! Thank god I'm too busy for such nonsense.... :D
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Also, some women will be allowed to drive cars.
As long as their ankles don't show...
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Just booked a place with Airbnb, never heard of them before, in Copenhagen. My fiance said 2x that she was worried with the reservation.... I figured, I paid with my cc, so if there's a problem, I have that to fall back on. Should I be worried??
We booked a place in Edinburgh last summer through Airbnb. I was a bit dubious, but it was a nice place. Worked out just fine for us.
I expect if you're not trying to get into a place during a big event like the World Cup, you'll be fine.