Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: Happy Wanderer on 16 May 2015, 01:15:42 PM
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Gents,
Does anyone have any info on the dispositions of the French Forces in French Somaliland at the time of the Italian invasion of Abyssinia in 1935?
Also, what would these troops look like and are there any likely candidates in 28mm?
Any info appreciated.
Regards
Happy W
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A big regiment de tirailleurs sénégalais de la cote des somalies : 8000 ranks and file , 1500 europeans, the other natives
a FT tank company of 15 renault FT
a mountain artillery battery ( 75mm mountain guns )
a coastal artillery battery
an AA battery ( 75mm CA)
2 meharist platoons
2 militia companies
a Mobile Group including a motorized bataillon and 6 White and Citroen Kegresse Armored cars
12 Potez 25
sand colored colonial kit so no figures avaible at the moment and headgear :
europeans : sun helmet ( quite the same that the german one ) .
natives : fez
(http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/1902/80371902/pics/3114700219_1_9_1Mp73h9Z.jpg)
(http://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/11/63/95/43/tirail10.jpg)
the center figure is a cameleer ;)
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French Forces Landing in Djibouti 1935
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Troops_Djibouti_1935.jpg)
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oups :
the coastal guns were 164mm mod 1893 ones
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Marinegesch%C3%BCss_wird_zum_Schuss_eingestellt.jpg/800px-Marinegesch%C3%BCss_wird_zum_Schuss_eingestellt.jpg)
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Wow, I'm impressed with your knowledge, lou passejaire. :)
Thank you for sharing. :) I wonder if we could get Artizan or someone to make these figures? I'd do a good skirmish force if they were available.
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i have discussed with the Perry's ... senegaleses seem's to be in their list of "to do" ;)
for the europeans ( ie most of the artillery, and infantry Officers and NCO's ) you can use some of the Perry foreign legion with DAK box sun helmets .
for the senegaleses, you have to wait :D
the problem is that nobody produce a 75mm mountain gun .
( and it's not knowledge, just a matter of documentation ;) )
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Perry Senegalese will be awesome! :)
And I appreciate your willingness to share your documentation. :)
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oups , i have done a mistake on the original question .
i gave the answer for 1939 ( 1938 in reality )
in 1935, there was only in french Somaliland :
A regiment de tirailleurs sénégalais de la cote des somalies : around 1000 ranks and file , 100 europeans, the other natives
a coastal artillery battery
an AA battery ( 75mm CA)
2 meharist platoons
2 militia companies.
Reinforcements were send in 1938 . :?
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Well until such time as someone does make a dedicated range of Senegalese in 28mm, these would probably make reasonable proxies:
http://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/Askari-I-5_p_382.html
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Well until such time as someone does make a dedicated range of Senegalese in 28mm, these would probably make reasonable proxies:
http://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/Askari-I-5_p_382.html
^Thanx! I could use those anyway, nice minis. :)
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oups , i have done a mistake on the original question .
I think we can let it pass this time. Don't let it happen again. ;)
To echo Anna Elizabeth, I am in awe of your knowledge as usual. :)
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sometimes , i read half of the question before answering ... ;)
my knowledge is not universal, i have a f---ing problem with the registration numbers and vehicle names of the free french in syria ... and i can't found ... >:(
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Maybe these can be used for the askaris:
http://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/FRN06_Senegalese_Rifles_4--product--4040.html
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Maybe these can be used for the askaris:
http://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/FRN06_Senegalese_Rifles_4--product--4040.html
Nice minis. Looks like they are carrying Martini-Henry rifles?
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Gents,
Thanks for the great response there..really good.
So, just looking at a bit more detail on the troops in 1935:
A regiment de tirailleurs sénégalais de la cote des somalies : around 1000 ranks and file , 100 europeans, the other natives
a coastal artillery battery
an AA battery ( 75mm CA)
2 meharist platoons
2 militia companies.
I guess the equipment is manned by European French troops and the sénégalais are the rank and file as noted. What figures other than Brigade game link (which are quite nice, but limited to 5 poses) will likely do for these sénégalais types...any ideas? I was thinking more in the line of the Hicks style advancing, charging, loading and firing poses.....just throwing it out there to see if any other troops can be used in the mix here....Woodbine do a single figurine pack. Would the Empress Eritrean Askaris do just as well for French sénégalais? If so then perhaps they could do double duty..Eritrean Askari's one day...French sénégalais the next...?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KHhbSM7vRPM/TEs3lOMDUqI/AAAAAAAAAhA/rVQvKbuXa78/s1600/PICT0007.jpg)
Cheers
HappyW
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if you are not in a hurry, i think that the future Perry ones will do ...
an alternative is to contact Campbell Hardie as his unsucessfull french armée du levant kickstarter was quite ready to release . he is cgh on the LAF .
I searched for suitable askaris for BM senegaleses , and found nothing ... ( wrong weapons, wrong uniform, wrong pouches and belt ) ...
Officers and NCO's were mainly europeans .
The AA battery was colonial, so europeans officers - NCO's, natives servants .
For the equipment, the costal battery was manned by sailors, short sleeves, shorts and sun helmet .
i have no pictorial evidence of the militia company .
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Thanks Lou,
Much appreciate. Nice work on chasing that stuff down ;)
...perhaps the Eritreans will do until the Perry Senegalese are done...may be the smart move...
Cheers
Happy W
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Damn shame that Kickstarter didn't come off.
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IMO, the kickstarter failed because it was a bit on the expensive side .
20€ the section without NCo and VB was a bit expensive , with the £ been high ... for 1£ more you have enough to build 2 sections from Perry ...
but it seem's that :
Thank you to all who backed this ultimately unsuccessful project. However I am not giving up yet and the project will be relaunched in the near future with a different pledge pricing level and smaller objectives.
Watch this space.
Campbell
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True, but I sort of expect to pay more to help a line be created. For me though, with no NCO and VB in the section and having to commit to 6 sections to get 2 officers etc., it was a bit too much.
From a customer's perspective the presentation was a bit unprofessional too. Unless I am mistaken, the French start a title with a capital letter? Of course you would also expect 'Legionnaire' to be spelt correctly too. This is fine on a forum or a blog, but when you a selling a product it gives the wrong impression. Lack of updates, not pushing the project on forums with constant posting of pictures, also contributed. You have to create a 'need'.
I do hope he does carry on with it, but also learns a lesson or two from this time. :)
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i hope he understood what Bob has told him :
Bob Emmerson on May 1
I think this project will be able to make it with a little reworking.
A slightly lower funding goal perhaps, but the main thing is to proof read everything and fancy stuff up for a professional look that people will trust.
Not starting the campaign on April first is another consideration :)
I do hope he does carry on with it, but also learns a lesson or two from this time. :)
He has paid the sculptor and may be th moulds so ...
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Well this is useful, as for something slightly diffrent we atarted a VBCW 1938 campaign in the Horn of Africa at our club recently (only two games so far and they were reported on the VBCW forum). One of our members is using FFL as his faction, this may encourage him (not that he needs much encouragement) to get some tirailleurs sénégalais.
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I know these are not the same as the proposed Kickstarter French (that would appear to be on the money), but how do you think the Perry miniatures Free French in shorts would go for potential mid '30s desert fighting french? Mostly in Kepi I was thinking. Would any head swaps work...Adrian helmets?
...not perfect, but is there anything that makes them decidedly unusable for say a 1935 French desert force from North Africa or Syria? By that I mean, even thought the uniform may not exactly be the one we have pictures of, like the Kickstarter ones, are the uniforms and equipment these Perry minis have completely wrong and in no way what or how a French Force could be dressed this way in 1935?
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=23_74_84&osCsid=162k5u30l30lh12hi3sdt42s81
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/Fww4.JPG)
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/Fww3.JPG)
Cheers
Happy W
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The kepis are fine for FL, they dropped the distinctive 'Beau Geste' style cover after WWI. If anything it is the British gaiters and socks that mark them as FFFL and not actual 'French', who wore puttees... as well as other 'British' equipment items they may have sculpted on. The scarves are typically Interwar FFL, although I don't know if other units used them.
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...so if these Free French had in some way acquired british gaiters and socks by chance, then if they deemed them better than their own kit, they would more or less fit the bill....given that they have a decidedly 'French' look to them...shorts, scarves and kepi...which are the really distinctive French features :D
...and off course they would be Free French of WW2 as well!
....mmm.....thanks
Happy W
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^ I'd guess that it wouldn't be too difficult to file the lower legs down and re-sculpt puttees, if Anypony were so inclined to do that. :)
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...so if these Free French had in some way acquired british gaiters and socks by chance...
... and time travelled three or four years into the future. The British were also wearing puttees in 1935. ;)
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"..so if these Free French had in some way acquired british gaiters and socks by chance..."
Bugger!
Bloody Brits...where is their fashion sense!
...gggrrrr >:(
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Bloody Brits...where is their fashion sense!
I'm going to be the better man and let that one pass... glass houses and stones and all that mate! lol
Actually, Ms Elizabeth is probably on the mark though... if only the socks and gaiters are the issue, then surely they can be altered? :?
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and it's a pity that the Perry's sculpted the french with gaiters ...
i see a lot of pictorial evidence of socks , or even no socks at all :
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/18827c10.jpg)
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I imagine that if he wore socks with those sandals he would be in breach of the Geneva Convention regarding the wearing of enemy uniform. >:D
;)
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...the search continues!
How about these Artizan French? They have puttees, scarf, short Kepi and non descriptor 'kit'.
...would these do for 1935 French?
(http://www.artizandesigns.com/images/img1457.jpg)
http://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=21&cat=148&page=1
(http://www.artizandesigns.com/images/img1883.jpg)
...these chaps?
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The top ones definitely for the FFL. The others I do not know.
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"The top ones definitely for the FFL. The others I do not know."
Well that's a good start.
The Artizan range could thus provide c.1935
FFL
(http://www.artizandesigns.com/images/img1457.jpg)
Senegalese Tirailleurs would be usable from Empress (Italian Askaris)
(http://www.46680.mrsite.com/USERIMAGES/ASK1.JPG)
Now what would Moroccan troops in North Africa look like in 1935?...similar to these Tirraileur Algerien's or the WW2 Goumier? The Rif War Moroccans don't seem to have changed much so perhaps they look more like those of days gone by instead of WW2 types.
(http://www.artizandesigns.com/images/img1881.jpg)
Goumiers...though that helmet doesn't look right....not seemingly an Adrian type which is surprising
(http://www.artizandesigns.com/images/img1462.jpg)
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...the search continues!
How about these Artizan French? They have puttees, scarf, short Kepi and non descriptor 'kit'.
...would these do for 1935 French?
(http://www.artizandesigns.com/images/img1457.jpg)
http://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=21&cat=148&page=1
(http://www.artizandesigns.com/images/img1883.jpg)
...these chaps?
Wanderer, that 2nd photo - Osprey's "A World Aflame" has a plate of FFL that look like that, not sure which book it's sourced from. OK - sourced as "French Foreign Legion from MMA 325 - "French Foreign Legion 1914-45". Might be worth picking up? :)
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moroccan tirailleurs 1935 :
(http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/1902/80371902/pics/3113767735_1_13_hluurNmh.jpg)
algerian tirailleurs :
(http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/1902/80371902/pics/3113767735_1_9_pYcrJD4e.jpg)
legion :
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1f/07/57/1f075728bdb4d0f185f2e5d3a3f30ce5.jpg)
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...I was hoping you'd pop up Lou ;)
So those Artisan Goumier types are out...the FFL seem likely candidates though.
Those moroccan tirailleurs and Algerian tirailleurs are looking a bit 'specific'. It would seem that with a head swap for the small tarbouche and the 'wrap around' headwear that the same figures would work....though their own figures would be best.
...so do you have any idea who makes the heads or specific moroccan or Algerian tirailleurs by any chance do you for these troops c. 1935?
Cheers
Happy
PS this is turning in to a good 'resource' thread so thanks to all who have contributed.
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you can use artizan goumiers, but you have to use moroccan heads or adrian helmet heads .
for the moroccan tirailleurs, H10 moroccans heads from empress miniatures SCW range are the one you need ;)
(http://www.46680.mrsite.com/USERIMAGES/10(1).JPG)
for the algerian ones, may be trying H9 moroccans heads from empress miniatures SCW range
(http://www.46680.mrsite.com/USERIMAGES/9(1).JPG)
for the foreign legion, you can use the artizan FFL if the WW2 Range .
And if you want them in sun helmet ( wich was regulation for Somaliland ) DAK sun helmet will work ...
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just give a look here : http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=79542.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=79542.0) ;)
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/plates/photo-5.JPG)
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Excellent... I was really surprised they had not mentioned anything to do with the 'other French' and seemed to be moving towards Tunisia and Sicily.
:)
Comments regarding the figures themselves should go on the thread Lou has kindly provided, so as to conform to LAF's cross-posting rules. What you intend to do with them in an Interwar sense is fine here however.
;)
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Well,
That is exactly what we are looking for it would appear....lovely timing.
"These will be 28mm metal figures that could be used in Syria and Madagascar."
So to the specifics.
For the Interwar we have the Perry Foreign legion types (excepting the gaiters)...or Artizan which are fine.
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/Fww4.JPG)
Vichy French and Senegalese tirialleurs - new Figures.
Are these dollies able to be used for both Interwar French and Senegalese tirialleurs i.e. are they the same figures or are we looking at two types of figures being released and the photo only shows some of them?
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/plates/photo-5.JPG)
Lou, with your knowledge on the French, would be able to tell us what we can get out of these minis to create French infantry types of the interwar period ala French Somalialand, North African and Mid East command types around 1935 please ...assuming we can get separate heads (e.g. Empress or maybe Perrys) and replace them on these dollies?
There still seems to be a lot of Frenchmen in long pants and leggings in the pictures you put up before
(http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/1902/80371902/pics/3113767735_1_9_pYcrJD4e.jpg)
....are you saying those troops would likely switch over to shorts in the desert theatre and thus these new Perry minis cover moroccan tirailleurs and Algerian tirailleurs as well?
...this wraps this thread up nicely! :D
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I may be wrong about this but I get the distinct impression that shorts as a regular issue item really only took off with the French Army from the 1940s onwards, probably the influence of perfidious Albion. If you look closely at the Perry minis those FFL are wearing British shorts and gaiters and in a few cases they are wearing 'Bombay bloomers' the shorts that could be buttoned down as long trousers ( essentially a gas precaution).
The French Army was going through a uniform transition at the outbreak of the war. A new uniform had been designed with a more contemporary look, gaiters, plus four styled trousers and a new open collar tunic. A new pattern sports style shirt was also introduced, it was a pullover design, short sleeved, a bit like a modern polo shirt.
Because of the massive stockpile of existing uniforms, very little of this was issued prior to the fall of France. The Vichy regime did use the new gear though and there's plenty of photographic evidence of its use both in France and overseas. Oddly enough Italeri produced some French WW2 figures back in the 1980s that were wearing this kit. Accurate for 1941 onwards.
The new Perry dollies with the long pants and Adrian helmets are clearly wearing the uniform. They won't be much use to you if you want to do inter war French. Hopefully they will do some in shorts and short sleeved shirt for Madagascar and/or a semi-fictional Ritchy-Hook raid on Dakar. My own wish is for Free French in shorts and shirts, rather than jackets. Swap in the Red Star bush hats and they would be perfect for the French in Indochina.
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shorts became a regulation item in hot climates ( Sub saharian africa, syria-lebanon, french somaliland, madagascar, Indochina , etc and not in north africa . the north african troops were under the rules of the War departement, the other overseas troops under the rules of Colony département ;) ) after 1931 . the main difference between european and native troops was in the lack of collar for the "senegalese" ...
and the dollies in long pants are afrikakorps plastic ones to support the adrian helmets :D
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Ok.
Thanks Lou.
So these boys could be French troops from Madagascar or maybe North African troops 'reissued' on arrival in French Somaliland :D :D :D
Cheers
R
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there were no north african troops in somaliland ...
but you can use turban heads for "militia" IMO ...
i never found pictures of somaliland militia .
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(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FXr66li0Dpc/VXlJf5mcB1I/AAAAAAAAU38/B-A5wlVBjl8/w763-h493-no/personnel-de-l-escadrille-de-la-cote-francaise-des-somalis.jpg)
This photo is from 1936... I have no idea which units the two Indigènes belong to. But the guy on the left looks 'African', while the guy on the right 'looks' Somali.
there were no north african troops in somaliland ...
Hypothetically: 'If' the Côte française des Somalis 'was' reinforced from Syria and/or North Africa during the Abyssinian Crisis, would the units remain in their respective uniform regulations, or would they conform to the local ones? I suspect the photo answers that question though.
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even in a what if, there is no reason to reinforce this territory with NA troops ;), they will be send to reinforce the mareth line and the tchad . lol
the "indigénes" belong to the "regiment de tirailleurs senegalais de la cote des somalies"
and the "senegaleses" came from evrywhere in africa under colony departement administration , somaliland, AEF, AOF ... so you can have ethnic differences in the same "unit" .
what disturb me on your picture is the british tin helmet ;)
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It is a sun helmet... if you look closely. The British helmet is much smaller in the crown. It is from the French Air Force (http://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/dossiers/80-ans-de-presence-aerienne-a-djibouti/80-ans-de-presence-aerienne-a-djibouti) site... so I presume dated correctly.
Indeed the Mareth Line and Chad would be reinforced if the enemy was Italy... but if it was La perfide Anglais? ;)
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then reinforcement from North Africa will go direct in the Palestinian border ;) and on the tchad soudan border ... the AEF and AOF regiments de tirailleurs senegalais will deal with Nigeria, Golden Coast and so ...
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That makes sense to me. So you are saying that the Côte Française des Somalis would have to make do with what it already had? I did note that in the real crisis very little was sent there.
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french somaliland was of poor interest ... both strategic and economic ...
they would get some reinforcement but not the best troops ...
the french fleet can use Madagascar ... and the most important will be to secure mediterranean theater and west african coast ...
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"the french fleet can use Madagascar ... and the most important will be to secure mediterranean theater and west african coast ... "
Perhaps, but if France was to throw in her lot with Italy and Italy and France control the Gulf of Aden and Red Sea waterways, at least by interdiction, which is the point, then in France's 'brave new world' of alliance with Italy (even if temporary) they collectively may be able to force Britain to back down from any protestations about the Italian invasion of Ethiopia which they may be pushing in the League ( in this hypothetical encounter).
Point being that Italy and France combined would force a major response by Britain to keep her Empire trade routes unimpeded..and specifically at the point at which it will be impeded....Eritrea, French and British Somaliland....not to mention potential Arab uprising across the Red Sea.
There are many combinations at play but if the issue is to be forced in Abyssinia (by League mandate), because of the Italian invasion, then this 'localised' theatre would be worth the French reinforcing (to aid, or probably at the behest, of their new Italian ally).
If the outcome of victory or failure is measured by Italy's occupation of Abyssinia, or not, and France has backed success there (with Italy vs Britain), then with this as the determinant of victory or defeat she would be forced to take a greater stake in French Somaliland...let alone secure her port and rail head facilities at Djibouti, which will certainly be of use to the Italians at some point if France is indeed Italy's ally. The poor port facilities at Massawa and Mogadishu would increase the importance of Djibouti a good deal.
...just one of a few scenarios if Britain were to lead a League mandated push to evict Italy from its aggression in the Horn of Africa....defending the League's charter...
Happy W
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... But the Red Sea is not important if shipping has to run a gauntlet of French and Italian based ships and aircraft along the Mediterranean to the Strait of Gibraltar. If Malta is neutralised too, or at least somewhat interdicted, then the Canal and Red Sea are worthless in any case. As was the case with the British later on, French Somaliland could be temporarily abandoned if things got too tough there.
I had not considered the fact that Tchad & Centafrique border the Sudan... despite the Fashoda Incident being the mire on which the Entente had been built. That is quite important, even if it would be very difficult to threaten the Sudan from there. Although French dreams of a Dakar to Djibouti rail line might resurface... which might be of importance?
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"Insert Quote
... But the Red Sea is not important if shipping has to run a gauntlet of French and Italian based ships and aircraft along the Mediterranean to the Strait of Gibraltar. If Malta is neutralised too, or at least somewhat interdicted, then the Canal and Red Sea are worthless in any case. As was the case with the British later on, French Somaliland could be temporarily abandoned if things got too tough there."
I would agree with that. Except, as you know, in 1935 the Italian navy has limited capacity to interdict the Malta-Siciliy-North African bottleneck and it would require a great effort by the Italian airforce to attempt to do so. However, the Duce has invaded Ethiopia and it is here that all his resources are located so cutting of the way to the Far East by way of Malta is a moot point. The Italians are in Abyssinia and that is where the action is and where they can threaten British trade routes.
The British off course respond where Italy has initiated conflict, as the League of Nations mandate would allow, so the Duce has no interest at this time in neutralising Malta because he's really no keen on fighting the English anyway....he unfortunately miscalculates their actions in the League which is the basis of such a scenario taking place in the first place.
So regardless of wherever the British want to fight the Italians somewhere in the Med to their advantage, they must confront them where the League's mandate requires them to i.e. evict the Duce from Abysinnia..not start a general Europan conflict.
I'm sure if NATO insist that Putin gets out of Ukraine and uses force to do so they will not attack the Russians everywhere and start a general war..they will evict him from Ukraine as the UN resolution would require off them and only that outcome...not general war...is the conflict that would likely occur. Same goes for Saddam in Kuwait...get him out, not start a war with the aim of conquering the whole of Iraq...and so on.
Limited war, limited aims...
..but I know you know this off course and can probably see different outcomes as well....it's all in how one reads the tea leaves to the outcome one is seeking in an alternate history hypothetical :D
Happy W
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..but I know you know this off course and can probably see different outcomes as well....it's all in how one reads the tea leaves to the outcome one is seeking in an alternate history hypothetical :D
Of course. :D ... but I am interested in stimulating discussion on how such a war might go. It's all grist to the mill. :)
I can't see the Italians or French not attempting to cut one of Britain's supply lines if they are able to though... nor indeed forcing the British with their limited forces in the Middle East, to fight on more than one front, especially as ground units are their strength and Britain is effectively surrounded in Egypt and the Sudan.
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"Of course. ... but I am interested in stimulating discussion on how such a war might go. It's all grist to the mill"
I can't see the Italians or French not attempting to cut one of Britain's supply lines if they are able to though... nor indeed forcing the British with their limited forces in the Middle East, to fight on more than one front, especially as ground units are their strength and Britain is effectively surrounded in Egypt and the Sudan.
Quite right...I did think to mention that Lou's suggestion does bring aspects to British LOC problems via the Anglo Sudan....a suitable restraint to contain any significant British force making its way to Abyssinia..more an interesting backwater to the whole story I think Nevertheless it is an interesting and useful development ;)
Coupled to the Italian force on the Libyan/Egypt border and the Brits could well be in a bit of a pickle when facing off against a possible Franco-Italian enemy in the Med.
Also, his comment about the French not necessarily being able to send the best of their North African stuff maybe a reason they would send some Metropolitan troops to Somaliland in a show of 'total' commitment...albeit a modest size, possibly only a few battalions...but that does make for nice force variation :D
...so yes, input from one and all on this possible scenario are welcome....
:D
Happy W
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Lou or one of our other French members will correct me if I am wrong I am sure, but the whole idea of having a Colonial Army, a North African Army and an Army of the Levant, is that Metropolitan units do not serve outside of France? On top of which would they weaken France with all those (imaginary) German divisions just waiting for their revenge. Deploying French boys to the colonies would be political suicide for the government.
This imaginary stuff is very hard work... for every pebble there are many ripples. ;)
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...adding more to mix...
remembering off course there is no correct answer here....
...an army as big as France I think would be able to spare some troops for an immediate crisis, particularly one with a new ally against a real or potential (British) enemy. Germany aren't I think going to invade if a brigade of French Metropolitan troops end up in Africa I'm pretty sure...not in 1935.
I also think it'd be politically manageable, particularly as France was going to right a wrong perpetrated by the English in the League...
In reality there was just such a force for this contingency. The Mobile Force was kept as a general army reserve that could be deployed as required - it consisted of French forces deployed in France i.e. it was stationed both on the mainland and in the colonies.
The current regulations at that time stated that "The mobile forces, being the reserves of the permanent overseas forces, consisting of French and Native troops and usually stationed in home territory and in North Africa."
So in my hypothetical I can easily see some French troops from the mobile reserve deploying to Africa in support of their new ally whilst some of the North African native forces contended with possible action against the British on the Anglo-Sudan border.
...and wouldn't it be nice to see a few hastily dispatched French regiments in an exotic location like Somaliland.... ;D
The army as per the act of parliament of 1927 dictated that;
The organisation of the French army is regulated by the law on the General Organisation of the Army adopted by Parliament and
promulgated' on July I3th, 1927. This law is being gradually put into operation.
The land army consists of the home troops and the colonial troops, which are not on the same statutory basis, but which both consist of
French units and mixed units composed of colonial natives or foreigners, with French cadres.
The home or colonial troops stationed in France, North Africa and the Levant are placed under the orders of the Minister of
National Defence and War. Such of these troops as are stationed in the French Colonies are under 'the Minister of the Colonies'.
Certain home and colonial units at present stationed in France and in Algeria-Tunisia, and known as mobile forces, constitute the
reserves of the overseas forces.
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i have a question ... how do you send troops from france or North Africa to french somaliland in case of conflict with the British ?
give a look at the maps ...
In east Africa, the british can bring reinforcement from india, australia etc ... the french fleet is not a big problem in the Pacific ocean ..
IMO, the mobile force will be used first to take the Nigeria, Gold Coast, Sierra Leone and Gambia , to secure the tchad frontier ... and to try to take the Cyprus and Malta ...
but in the 30's Italy is a bigger problem for France than GB ...
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but in the 30's Italy is a bigger problem for France than GB ...
Happy W and I are assuming that Italy is pressing France to take her side, as under the terms of their alliance of 1933. At this point Italy has not sided with Germany and Mussolini is the sole figure standing up to Hitler over Austria. We have also assumed that the French see Italy as a more important ally on the ground and in the air in Europe, as opposed to the UK - who it was discovered could only raise a single division to deploy immediately to Europe in the event of war, instead of the ten it had agreed it would provide. The Stresa Front will collapse if Britain and Italy go to war, so France has a decision to make.
With Britain leading the International League into the realm of oil sanctions against Italy, its closer ties with Germany since 1919 (and that Britain and France are trade rivals in the German market) and that it had constantly opposed France on war reparation demands and alterations, France is somewhat unhappy with its 'ally'. The U.S. at this time was quite Pro-French in its policy, albeit still isolationist, so France wonders just how much it needs Les Anglais supposedly on its side any more.
We are toying with having had the Croix de Feu under De La Rocque intervene in the Paris Riots of 1934, rather than their historic back down. While France is not 'fascist', the right is now far much stronger in the National Assembly than it was historically, allowing firmer decisions to be made to secure France from potential German aggression. With De La Rocque at the helm, I imagine a much harder line for France's international interests.
As for the Tchad Frontier, as I understand it there was no rail line, or even any suitable roads. I would presume the desert would provide a suitable defence in itself... Darfur is on the Sudanese side of the border, which is not where I would like to march an army. Of course Britain's West African colonies are certainly worth acquiring all the same.
So... The assumption is that France is not drawn immediately into war, but has the only port with a rail head into Abyssinia. France did reinforce the area somewhat modestly in the real crisis, although very little is apparent in English as to what was sent. Britain did not close the Suez Canal during the real crisis, so while it might be closed to Italian shipping once the war begins, French vessels would be unimpeded. Essentially what France can send to Djibouti before war starts is what it will have to fight with... but what will it send?
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Here is an interesting tidbit of info...which is a description of activity along the Somali Coast. It gives some more detail on the size of forces around the time of the Abyssinian Crisis 1935-36.
It indicates 10,000 men...a number I'd like to double check somewhere else if I could...it seems quite high....can anyone confirm? Still, in early 1938 the French put in 15,000 troops because of Italian activity so it seems reasonable enough that the Italian invasion in 1935 might elicit a similar response.
http://www.schudak.de/timelines/frenchsomalicoast1708-1946.html (http://www.schudak.de/timelines/frenchsomalicoast1708-1946.html)
1933
A company of Tirailleurs Sénégalais and 3 airplanes are sent to reinforce the French Somali Coast. The Senegalese are gradually replaced by Somalis who are formed into La Compagnie de Tirailleurs de la Côte Française des Somalis.
1934
Commandant Bouet compiles a list of soldiers from the French Somali Coast who were killed in action, died from other causes or gone missing during the course of the First World War. Bouet reports: 224 killed, missing or presumed killed; 69 lost at sea, 197 who died from wounds or disease. 490 native tirailleurs along with 72 Europeans were killed or missing.
1935
French forces in the Somali Coast are reinforced following the Italian invasion of Ethiopia. The 10,000 men of the French garrison include; 1,500 European, 6,500 Senegalese and Malagaches and 2,000 Somalis of the Senegalese Regiment of the Somali Coast, The 1st Foot Battalion of Senegalese Tirailleurs, The French Somali Coast Militia, The Colonial Artillery Battery of the French Somali Coast and two squadrons of Méharistes (camel corps).
1936 August 1
An accord is sign between the Italian Government and La Compagnie du Chemin de Fer Franco-Éthiopien. Italy’s conquest of Ethiopia and subsequent development program pushes the railway’s capacity to its limits. The railway modernizes its rolling stock with the purchase of four Fiat railcars and new locomotives. Night trains are scheduled.
The trip from Djibouti to Addis Ababa which once took 3 days and 2 nights with stopovers at Dire Dawa and Aouache is shortened to a day and a night. New panoramic passenger cars and a dining car are put in service to increase capacity and comfort. The line is double tracked from Ali Sabieh to Dire Dawa.
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I don't think 10,000 is outlandish, it is a mere two brigades by British standards. Given that the Somali militia company became the Régiment de tirailleurs sénégalais de la Côte française des Somalis in October 1935, there would be a few of them.
Apparently Anthony Clayton's "History of the French Army in Africa from 1830 to 1962" (and an un-named 'Volume V' book by Lee Sharp). says that in 1940 there were 1,500 Europeans (Legion?), 6,500 Tirailleurs ('Senegalese' and Malagasy) and 2,500 Somalis, spread across 7 battalions. Lee Sharp apparently adds a 75mm Artillery Group (3 batteries including a 75mm mountain battery 'portée'), a 15 tank Renault FT company, a mobile group with 6 White Armoured Cars and some 'Citroëns' (armed trucks like the British had in the SDF?), the afore-mentioned méharistes and two (or four elsewhere) companies of 'milice' - which I'm guessing were armed European civilian volunteers and may be included in the 'Europeans' above.
Apparently there were 36 Europeans (officers, NCOs, weapon teams etc) in each 'native' battalion. Subtract the artillery men, tank and armoured car crews, militia and odds and sods, and you are left with a battalion's worth of Europeans... but from which Regiment I don't know.
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add some sailors who man the coastal defenses ... ;)
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Lou... besides the matelots, who could the remaining 'Europeans' be? :)
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add the somaliland air squadron ... ;)
then in an infantry regiment you have
a little less than 500 men in the HQ ( including regimental gun and mortar company )
each bataillon have a HQ of 80 men and a compagnie d'appui of around 170 men ...
if you assume that 2 third of those are europeans you have around 800 europeans in the regiment de tirailleurs and 600 in the remaining units ...
And the militia is NOT a european militia, just a suppletive unit used in a police and border guard role ( think of them as the meharists in southern sahara ) . they were raised by the governor and not by the military command . ;)
The FT tank company will be around 260 all ( or mostly ) europeans
the mobile group will be around 160 europeans
there was an oversized HQ in the colony as there was a General commanding the Artillery ... ( for 3 batteries ;) )
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I take it that in the Indigénes units, the support weapons were either wholly manned by Europeans, or at least commanded by them... much in the same way as the Spanish did in the Regulares?
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before 1939, about 1/3 to 1/2 of the support weapons and colonial artillery crews were natives ...
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My curiosity is satisfied then. I thought it might be the case, as other European armies were similarly cautious about providing training to indigenous personnel.
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and in the french army, they have too some Régiment d'Infanterie Coloniale Mixte Sénégalais ... in wich the european number is higher ...