New plastic Byzantines

[Koyote]

Why didn't you send them back for a refund/replacement?

The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe.

[Hupp n at em]

Looks like they based those two sculpts on the outdated and inaccurate Ian Heath's Osprey...

The lamellar on the figure on the left is wrong and doesn't even look Byzantine...

Pick up Dawson's Ospreys or even his Armour Never Wearies Scale and Lamellar Armour in the West, from the Bronze Age to the 19th Century for a good idea on how lamellar is worn on the body.

While pteruges are a possibility, by this time the upper arms and below the waist would've been protected by mail, scale or inverted lamellar. One could differentiate in the art by looking at whether the pteruges are stiff or not. 

For those who don't have access to the Osprey books, Timothy Dawson has an excellent website as well.
http://www.levantia.com.au/

The models actually look pretty good, especially compared to FF Russians, Swedish and archers. I may even get a box at some point.

Seems like, based on the Dawson resources, that these could be useful for kitbashing some more-accurate Byzantines.  Green stuff seems a must though... 

[Ninefingers]

The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe.

Apologies, didn't spot your location!

[1ngram]

"The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe."

Never, never, never send back faulty goods - the cost of packing and posting them is always excessiove.  Just photograph what you received and email the seller showing that what you got was unacceptable and ask for a replacement to be sent you.  Once that is agreed you can ask if he wants the original stuff back.  In all the years I've yet to have anyone who sold me duff stuff ask for it back.

[ErikB]

"The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe."

Never, never, never send back faulty goods - the cost of packing and posting them is always excessiove.  Just photograph what you received and email the seller showing that what you got was unacceptable and ask for a replacement to be sent you.  Once that is agreed you can ask if he wants the original stuff back.  In all the years I've yet to have anyone who sold me duff stuff ask for it back.

I got ripped off by a guy named Richard Anselmo at www.laguiole.com in this way.  He never fixed nor replaced the defective $150 pocket knife he sent me.  He argued that I was rude to him by sending him images of the defective knife.  I suggest that nobody ever do business with that company (not that this has anything to do with minis but it does illustrate the principle.)

[Ninefingers]

"The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe."

Never, never, never send back faulty goods - the cost of packing and posting them is always excessiove.  Just photograph what you received and email the seller showing that what you got was unacceptable and ask for a replacement to be sent you.  Once that is agreed you can ask if he wants the original stuff back.  In all the years I've yet to have anyone who sold me duff stuff ask for it back.

Although by UK law the seller is liable for the return postage cost if the goods are faulty.

[armchairgeneral]

Apart from the obvious lower cost, IMHO the advantage of plastics is the potential to be able to individualize every figure. For Byzantine foot there should be options for:-

• quilted or lamellar torsos
• turban or helmeted heads
• oval, round or kites shields

[armchairgeneral]

Great that Byzantine plastics are coming though. A nice army somewhat neglected by wargamers.

[Maxromek]

As far as I remember, they will have ovals and kites for shields. I really doubt the turban will be an option, though. I will be quite (positively) shocked if that was the case. I also have my doubts about quilted/padded armour, especially if the pteruges will be molded on every arm. Unless those bits are meant to represent cloth of the tunic, not leather "feathers".

[Condottiere]

The quilted armor and "turban" is in Praecepta militaria of Nikephoros Phokas and the revised version included in the Taktika of Nikephoros Ouranos, collected in Sowing the Dragon’s Teeth: Byzantine Warfare in the Tenth Century - period Greek text on the left and English on the right.

Unlike the Taktika of Leo VI, an antiquarian, the aforementioned treatises were penned by generals - the former later became an emperor and the latter served under Basil II - and acquainted with frontline realities:

 "They must have thick caps of felt to be fastened over their heads with bands of cloth" - Nikephoros II Phokas

 "thick caps of felt fastened over their heads with bands of cloth" - Nikephoros Ouranos

Despite not being considered Roman, turban like headgear was worn by males of various classes, earlier than the 10th Century...

Roman Military Clothing(3) p23:

"Caps were sometimes replaced by or wrapped with a phakeolis: a kind of turban, usually of linen, wound around the cap and head in complex folds with an end falling to the shoulders as protection from the sun. This would have allowed the use of other headgear – perhaps helmets – on top."

By the Emperor’s Hand: court regalia and military dress in the Eastern Roman Empire by Timothy Dawson.

Pteruges, sometimes with attached strips of metal, could also be worn separately, attached to a belt. The problem is that the art was stylized, so instead of lamellar it's pteruges, even though it looks too stiff to be leather on the shoulders.

There were two kinds of quilted armor, both a continuation of earlier Roman versions: one was thin and providing under armor padding, while the other was at least two fingers thick - described in the aforementioned treatises. Soft helmets and armor was more a realization that, aside from the front rankers, not everyone might have access to metal.

[armchairgeneral]

The quilted armor and "turban" is in Praecepta militaria of Nikephoros Phokas and the revised version included in the Taktika of Nikephoros Ouranos, collected in Sowing the Dragon’s Teeth: Byzantine Warfare in the Tenth Century - period Greek text on the left and English on the right.

Unlike the Taktika of Leo VI, an antiquarian, the aforementioned treatises were penned by generals - the former later became an emperor and the latter served under Basil II - and acquainted with frontline realities:

 "They must have thick caps of felt to be fastened over their heads with bands of cloth" - Nikephoros II Phokas

 "thick caps of felt fastened over their heads with bands of cloth" - Nikephoros Ouranos

Despite not being considered Roman, turban like headgear was worn by males of various classes, earlier than the 10th Century...

Roman Military Clothing(3) p23:

"Caps were sometimes replaced by or wrapped with a phakeolis: a kind of turban, usually of linen, wound around the cap and head in complex folds with an end falling to the shoulders as protection from the sun. This would have allowed the use of other headgear – perhaps helmets – on top."

By the Emperor’s Hand: court regalia and military dress in the Eastern Roman Empire by Timothy Dawson.

Pteruges, sometimes with attached strips of metal, could also be worn separately, attached to a belt. The problem is that the art was stylized, so instead of lamellar it's pteruges, even though it looks too stiff to be leather on the shoulders.

There were two kinds of quilted armor, both a continuation of earlier Roman versions: one was thin and providing under armor padding, while the other was at least two fingers thick - described in the aforementioned treatises. Soft helmets and armor was more a realization that, aside from the front rankers, not everyone might have access to metal.

When would the oval shield have been discontinued?

[Condottiere]

When would the oval shield have been discontinued?

AFAIK, it never was discontinued...

Raffaele D'Amato is better with his Byzantine aka Medieval Romans, than Antique Romans with the leather lorica, albeit ostentatious in appearance compared to Dawson's almost austere reconstructions, and based on the plates and the few bits of period art in his books, various types of flat and concave round shields as late as the 1450s.  

A Prôtospatharios, Magistros, and Strategos Autokrator of 11th cent. : the equipment of Georgios Maniakes and his army according to the Skylitzes Matritensis miniatures and other artistic sources of the middle Byzantine period. by Raffaele D’Amato

I just noticed that the boots look off...

Infantry footwear should look like this and described in the aforementioned treatises:



‘Fit  for  the  task’:  equipment  sizes  and  the  transmission  of
military  lore,  sixth  to  tenth  centuries by Timothy Dawson

The middle Byzantine era kontarion came in two sizes. The short kontarion was about 2.4 metres long. The great kontarion was between 4 and 5 metres long.1 The two upright men in the picture below are armed with great kontaria, while the lunging man deploys a menavlion. Whereas Nikêforos Fôkas gives a specific size for the head of a menavlion, spear heads only needed to be “fit for the task”. Front line infantry carried the great kontarion, while the short kontarion was the armament of cavalry and lighter infantry.

I don't agree on every detail in D'Amato's and Dawson's books, the former's over reliance on art for accuracy and the latter's assertion that Byzantine style riveted lamellar disappeared after 1204 and the over importance of stirrups, but both are much better than Heath's compilations.

I have yet to find wargaming rules that allow Byzantines pikes...

The East Romans absorbed and modified clothing and gear from their neighbors and occasionally innovated and these passed to the West, usually via the Italians, to appear in the 15th Century...

http://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2015/09/mourning-their-captain.html

15th Century Italian:

 

From By the Emperor’s Hand: court regalia and military dress in the Eastern Roman Empire...

6th Century East Roman:



10th century East Roman:



15th Century East Roman:

[Codsticker]

"romiosio soldiery must have looked very "Turkish", as we might think of it now..."
With that in mind I wonder if one could use Gripping Beasts Arab Heavy Cavalry with appropriate shields to represent Byzantine cavalry?

[Condottiere]

"romiosio soldiery must have looked very "Turkish", as we might think of it now..."
With that in mind I wonder if one could use Gripping Beasts Arab Heavy Cavalry with appropriate shields to represent Byzantine cavalry?

For close combat cavalry, I'd use slightly modified Normans and heavily converted GB plastic Arab heavy cavalry for light armored horse-archers and lancers - the padded surcoat shouldn't be that difficult to greenstuff. The Kataphraktoi are too specialized...

There's plenty of variation, since most Thematic cavalrymen would bring their own gear, with replacements sometimes provided by the state.