Kings of War Armada

[Macunaima]

Well.... I hesitate to say it, but... here goes: when it looks stupid, not cool.

When it’s so toy-like it might as well be made out of brightly colored plastic and sold at your local Target or such like.

I realize that everyones’ esthetics differ on this point and that is fine. Horses for courses.

But does EVERY fantasy naval game have to follow the esthetic laid down by Man ‘O War — or even exaggerate it more?

Imagine something like this, only with balistas instead of cannon, shields hung over the sidework, maybe some really intricate carving on the poopdeck and a whopping great griffonhead figurehead.

That’s what I am on about.

[Bloggard]

I wish someone would do a “realistic” looking fantasy naval game in 1/700. I really don’t like the over-the-top impractical designs that every fantasy naval game so far produced has come out with.

How hard would it be to do so e fantasy-style xebecs for elves, or Korean turtle boats for dwarves? Some junky junks for Orcs? Instead, we always get this sort of cartoonish fantasy style.

SOME cartoony elements, OK. It’s fantasy, after all. But do the ships always have to look like bathtub playtime toys...?

for me the tieing of direct real-world ethnic / geographical styling (and stereo-types thereby) to fantasy races is crass and, to a degree, dangerous.
there's too much of it been done already.

[Mr. White]

The other thing is, miniatures need to have a “silhouette effect”. Plenty of gamers don’t get around to painting the models so they need to be easily discernible what’s what at arms length if they’re all grey. Especially at very small scales.

If these ships all looked like historical as with maybe some different shields slung over the sides it could be very hard to tell what is what.

[Macunaima]

Well, the concept is “based on”, not “copies of”.

Different sail and hull patterns can definitely give you a silhouette effect. As for it being “crass”.... [points to all the Byzantine themes and imagery used in the Mantic world and politely ignores the old Warhammer world]

[shadowbeast]

The other thing is, miniatures need to have a “silhouette effect”. Plenty of gamers don’t get around to painting the models so they need to be easily discernible what’s what at arms length if they’re all grey. Especially at very small scales.

If these ships all looked like historical as with maybe some different shields slung over the sides it could be very hard to tell what is what.

I'm quite sure most historical naval gamers do without it. A French ship of the same period would look quite like an American or British ship.

I'm quite sure that Orc ship still looks like this, though:
(NSFW)

[Battle Brush Sigur]

I'm okay with a bit of Fantasy exaggeration, because ....well, that's what Fantasy is all about, isn't it. Take the thing, change one feature a bit, exaggerate everything a bit. (crassy simplified of course)

What I find a bit boring is overly exaggerating thing and drawing them too much into a cell-shaded cartoon world. (ie world of warcraft). I'm okay with cartoony things, but that doesn't mean they have to be all huge and feature large surfaces which are just weird looking for the intended scale. In that regard I find Dead Earth Games' The Drowned and the Damned ship (kickstarter running, have a look, plugplug*) a bit nicer to look at.

Here's a wild theory: Maybe many fantasy figures nowadays are sold based on render pictures, so they automatically tend to make them 'too fancy looking', not taking into consideration that it's the paintjob that makes a figure's look in the end. If manufacturers advertised their models with pictures of ....well, actual models rather than simulated renditions thereof maybe designs could 'get away' with looking a bit more sombre in design. Of course the fact that anything Fantasy is oversized and because level of detail often is mistaken for level of clutter across the model is also a thing. But then I might bring up arguments people have brought up about Fantasy figure design for the past 40 years.

I'd be interested to paint some of these Mantic ships, to see what they're like 'in the flesh'. I'm sure i'd like them alright, but based on the designs alone I don't feel too inclined to buy into this game (army lists, points costs, etc. aside).



*) I'm not affiliated with Dead Earth Games apart from the fact that I painted a handful of figures for them in the past.

[Bloggard]

Well, the concept is “based on”, not “copies of”.

Different sail and hull patterns can definitely give you a silhouette effect. As for it being “crass”.... [points to all the Byzantine themes and imagery used in the Mantic world and politely ignores the old Warhammer world]

which makes no difference imo (your comment).

'byzantine themes / imagery' or similar (which many would miss) are a long way from tying fantasy races to direct real-world counterparts.

But, yes, even in those terms, Mantic certainly remain culpable, as do most fantasy miniature makers deriving part, if not all, of their inspiration from the Tolkien-esque (or similar) well-pool.

I'm not sure what the 'answer' is tbh (as it would be to a question most don't feel it's necessary to ask, unfortunately). But less 'fantastical' and more 'historical' isnt' it.

[pancakeonions]

I wish someone would do a “realistic” looking fantasy naval game in 1/700. I really don’t like the over-the-top impractical designs that every fantasy naval game so far produced has come out with.

...

You might look into picking up the rules for Kings of War Armada, and the ships from Black Seas or Oak & Iron?  Unfortunately, though, I understand the cards needed to play the game come with the models...  so unless you've got a buddy who has the Armada models, it might be hard to play! 

(I love these models, and can't wait to get my hands on some - my order is somewhere out there!)

[Macunaima]

I own Black Seas. It’s black powder historical, however. What I’d like to see is Black Seas quality fantasy ships.

[Cerebus]

I've played a few games of Black Seas now and its worked pretty well (even over Zoom).  Has anyone played Armada who can summarize the differences between the two rule sets (if any?). 
I do like the fantasy aesthetic Mantic have come up with for their ships (unlike some - but 'seahorses for courses'). The picture Macunaima posted is very nice though, are these commercially available and if so in what scale?