English in Scottish War of Independence

[ACW Gamer]

I am painting some archers to be used for the Scottish War of Independence in Lion Rampant. I know that there weren’t really “uniforms “ at the time, but are there certain colors, livery or insignia I should use? Did they have a common gambeson? Or is this one of those things that no one can call me on?

Thanks

[frank xerox]

Just make them look like the bad guys.
I’m no expert but I think common colours would be more likely than livery, Lord Reddish gives his men red cloth kind of thing.

[carlos marighela]

Cross of St George, commonly used to differentiate English armies.

[Atheling]

Cross of St George, commonly used to differentiate English armies.

The Cross of St George was usually worn abroad. This could also be the case in Scotland but who knows(?)

[Iain R]

Off the top of my head, the only references to any form of livery I've seen for English troops at this sort of period is one lord who bought bolts of white material (I forget what, specifically) to outfit his followers, and I think the famed Cheshire archers, noted to be in their green and white, but there's no mention as to how this was specifically worn.

I think the first reference to the cross of St George being worn doesn't crop up till the HYW, but that's not to say it wasn't worn earlier, and we just have no surviving record of it. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and all that.

Personally, I'm just settling for giving my English units gambesons of a matching natural colour to suggest they've been issued from a common source (they'll be representing the garrison from Newcastle, Bamburgh or some other border fortress). This still isn't likely 100% correct, but will differentiate them a bit from my Scots, who have a more individualistic look, since contrary to popular belief, the equipment on either side really didn't differ much.

[carlos marighela]

I understood that the use of the St Georges cross  as a distinctive badge goes back at least as far as the 13th C.  Scotland was a foreign country at the time and in the absence of anything more particular it's a handy way to differentiate what will be very similar looking armies on the tabletop.

[Atheling]

Off the top of my head, the only references to any form of livery I've seen for English troops at this sort of period is one lord who bought bolts of white material (I forget what, specifically) to outfit his followers, and I think the famed Cheshire archers, noted to be in their green and white, but there's no mention as to how this was specifically worn.

It was white and green and you're thinking of Edward of Woodstock aka The Black Prince. But that was definitely for the HYW (just prior to the Crecy campaign).

I think the first reference to the cross of St George being worn doesn't crop up till the HYW, but that's not to say it wasn't worn earlier, and we just have no surviving record of it. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and all that.

Personally, I'm just settling for giving my English units gambesons of a matching natural colour to suggest they've been issued from a common source (they'll be representing the garrison from Newcastle, Bamburgh or some other border fortress). This still isn't likely 100% correct, but will differentiate them a bit from my Scots, who have a more individualistic look, since contrary to popular belief, the equipment on either side really didn't differ much.

I think Iain has a point here. Unless you really want to get down into the weeds and do a heck of a lot of research it might be an idea to have the "English" forces in natural coloured gambeson. I'm not sure where that leaves those not in a gambeson but hey ho

[bluewillow]

The cross was worn in the second barons war, so I think it may of been on campaign in Scotland.

A number of tabards were in use in retinues by the 2nd Barons war also. 

When I was researching for the 2nd Barons War, I made a list of fabric purchases and account claims for the campaign, with numbers supplied for Edwards I campaign.


 cheers
Matt

[Iain R]

It was white and green and you're thinking of Edward of Woodstock aka The Black Prince. But that was definitely for the HYW (just prior to the Crecy campaign).

Yeah, knew it was more for the Second WoI period (if not that actual campaign). Although something in the back of my mind is nagging me that there's an earlier reference, possibly for the revolt against Edward II, maybe Boroughbridge 1322? I could be imagining that though. It happens. 

[Atheling]

Yeah, knew it was more for the Second WoI period (if not that actual campaign). Although something in the back of my mind is nagging me that there's an earlier reference, possibly for the revolt against Edward II, maybe Boroughbridge 1322? I could be imagining that though. It happens. 

You might not be. I'd have to go digging in my library and that would be some feat. I think even Burne mentions the green and white cloth bought and distributed not as garments but as yards of cloth so maybe it's an easy one to check?

[Iain R]

Currently reading Fiona Watson's Under The Hammer, and it quotes that English foot were to be "equipped with white tunics, swords and knives, all at the expense of the local communities". She quotes this from Michael Prestwych's Edward I, and I'm sure I've read this in his other title on English medieval armies. It would certainly explain why I had the subconscious idea to paint my men of the Newcastle garrison in white tabards/surcoats where sculpted in them (other than the link to the renowned Newcastle's Whitecoats of ECW fame).

The fact that they'll be led by their Sheriff, Sir John de Lilliburn in his black and white arms, will also allow me to make some amusing Toon Army references...