Warriors of Elmet

[popolop]

Does anyone happen to have any suggestions for what kinds of equipment, armour, weapons etc would have been more typical for warriors of the Kingdom of Elmet, especially closer to the end of the 6th Century?

I am finding that there isnt a lot of hard information on this, so the jury seems to be out on how close to post-roman troops or more celtic they may have been so any kind of suggestion would be welcome.

The aim is to make up a 28mm force of historical figures for sometime around the attack on Catterick so any reference to then is appreciated!

[SJWi]

Like you I have little hard information but you did ask for "suggestions". Given that you are building a force set in what I believe is South Yorkshire/North Derbyshire in the late 500s I would surmise that the troops would begin to look more "Celtic/Welsh" then "Late Roman". We are speaking circa 150+ years after the Roman Army left so even given that kit was handed down from generation to generation I guess most of it was worn-out or broken.  As for equipment I would say most troops are unarmoured with shield and spear, with maybe an armoured Comitatus for the local noble/leader. A bit cliched but that's my suggestion.

As for figures I quite like the Westwind "Arthurian" range.  They are a pain with their separate heads but nicely animated and with separate shields can be given either Roman-style oval scutums or round shields ( only one type is supplied but if you have spare shields you can still fit them). They don't look too "Roman" too me.  I used these guys for my 2FL "Dux" force. 1st Corps produce a nice range of figures which I have only seem on the website. However they seem to be mainly in late Roman helmets or pillbox style soft hat, which together with their clean-shaven appearance is a bit too "late Roman" for my view of the late 6th century.           

[OB]

From memory the poem mentions cavalry, mail armour, swords, shields, javelins. Of course that's the elite warriors who get a mention in bardic poetry.   You can probably find a translation on An Gododdin on line.  Good for inspiration.

I'd imagine the infantry with spear/javelins shield.

More Celtic/Welsh than late Roman would be my guess too.

[SJWi]

OB, I've just dug out my "Edinburgh University Paperback" edition of the Gododdin dating back to 1978 when I was building an "Arthurian Army" using Minifigs. Happy days!

I know a lot of academic water has gone under various bridges since my book was published but the facts are still relevant. The "army" described is only 300 men and fights a force of several 1000 Saxons.  Hence the view that the well-armed and mounted troops mentioned are really just the "noble comitatus" and the less well-armed PBI are airbrushed out of the history.

     

[OB]

SJ would that be Kenneth Jackson's translation? If so I have it too. Very evocative. 

I also have a copy of John Koch's An Gododdin too. I paid quite a lot for that as I bought late. Money well spent all the same.

Koch's Marwnad Cunedag has some interesting stuff about about the Men of Bryneich in battle array. Koch dates that towards the end of Roman Britain.

An enduring interest for me.

[SJWi]

OB, yes it is the Kenneth Jackson translation. John Koch's book goes for silly money 2nd hand. I don't own a copy. 

I was very interested in the period in the 1970s when there was lots written by Leslie Alcock and John Morris. I also studied it a bit at University 1979-82. My interests moved on to pastures new in the '80s and '90s but I have been dabbling in it for the past few years . My biggest problem is getting used to the description of "early Middle ages"  for the period!     

[OB]

Jackson is good I think. I read him when I was in my teens it made quite an impression.

Koch is brilliant but you are right about silly money. I paid £100 for a new copy. I have seen them offered for twice that.

Off topic but in the same Ball Park Gordon Noble has a series of lectures on the Picts on you tube. Cutting edge research from a very clever lad.

Yes, and there's Late Antique too.

[guitarheroandy]

The only real 'information' is in Y Gododdin and that's heroic poetry so how correct it is is anyone's guess. The John Morris Arthur book has been long dismissed as entertaining fantasy, as has much of the other 'Arthurian' pseudo-history out there. The Warhammer Ancient Battles supplement 'Age of Arthur' is a good read for the background and was supported by historians like Guy Halsall whose ideas are very much more plausible than John Morris and co. That said, the pseudo-history is very entertaining and many of us have spent years gaming in those 'worlds'.

I'd go with mail/scale clad elite cavalry with javelins and light spears, swords and round shields, supported by unarmored cavalry with javelins , light spears and round shields. Medium/light cavalry tactics - lots of skirmishing before charging in to finish a weakened foe.
Infantry unarmored with javelins, light spears and round shields. Probably quite 'light infantry' types rather than shield walls...

West Wind models are really good - The Romano British cavalry make superb 6th/7th century elites but I do like the helmets in their Saxon helmeted head packs even better than the British ones and the two 'sides' probably looked quite alike in terms of their gear. Maybe more armour in the Anglo-Saxon armies as by 7th century they were becoming richer than the British ones and retaining trade links with Europe and beyond.

And of course Gripping Beast Welsh are decent too. Their combrogi models (mounted and on foot) are excellent 6th/7th century British as they don't look at all Roman.

It'll be a fun project to do for sure!

[SJWi]

Andy, I was well aware that messrs Alcock and Morris have been pretty much discredited. Just indulging in some 1970s nostalgia. That said I'm yet to find many more recent historians who agree on an interpretation of the period!

[guitarheroandy]

Andy, I was well aware that messrs Alcock and Morris have been pretty much discredited. Just indulging in some 1970s nostalgia. That said I'm yet to find many more recent historians who agree on an interpretation of the period!

Quite so! And 1970s nostalgia is a fun thing when one is as old as I am and, like I said, it's still a bloody great read!!! The period as it should have happened, even if it actually didn't! 

[OB]

Judy Shoaf ran Arthurnet for years before the crazies made her job impossible. She recounted an account of a seminar she attended.

She said it was like a McCarthy or Stalinist show trial. The victim was poor Lesley Alcock who was made to recant because some of the evidence he used was from a later period.

Only in the Age of Arthur is later evidence excluded from history. If we applied the same to Alexander the Great we wouldn't know much about him. A point Adrian Goldsworthy makes very well.

I still find Alcock very useful when thinking about the period. Morris I haven't read for years but I think he got somethings right.

I have hopes that John Koch might write something about Arthur. His essay on an early St. Patrick is brilliant and deserves more  attention.

[TWD]

Gillian Clarke's translation of Y Gododdin is beautiful
https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-gododdin/gillian-clarke//9780571352128

As for the original question I would personally go with the more "British/Welsh" versions of miniatures for the period than Late Roman/Romano British.

I'm eyeing the MDS line now sold by Eureka for my next Dark Age force and was considering Elmet as a notional background for them (being originally from that sort of part of the world).
https://eurekaminuk.com/collections/dark-ages-welsh

For a large army I'd bulk the units out with some of the Gripping Beast plastic Welsh which are a cheap and serviceable kit  - they use the same bodies as the Pict kit which I've made a lot of use of in my Midgard force.
The GB Welsh metals are also nice - I especially like the cavalry of their appropriately sized ponies.

[popolop]

Thankyou everyone for the wonderful suggestions so far! It has definitely helped me shape an idea of how this force may actually take shape.

I think it may help my mindset to actually take a stab at reading the Y Gododdin, I can see if the Gillian Clarke translation is available in the local shops near me.

This is definitely a long term, sort of complete over the years as I expand my knowledge of the subject and can justify the space it will take up. But there is just something about building up a force that feels like it has a semblance of real world connection that is very alluring.

[WorkShy]

I don't think there is any right or wrong answer. Pretty much any style from Late Roman 5th century to 8th century Anglo-Saxon is probably ok. You could take a look at the Osprey publication Post-Roman Kingdoms by Raffaele D'Amato for some inspiration. Just remember the illustrations are pretty hypothetical.   

The standard tropes to make them seem more Welsh and less Romano-British or Saxon is to have trews or bare legs (rather than trousers) and mustache (not beard). No shoes or just one shoe! The evidence for this comes from hundreds of years later, is very tenuous and from unreliable sources (the English!). Nonetheless, it seems be used regularly to differentiate the Welsh from Romano-British or Germanic on the tabletop. I'd note that D'Amato seems to have dropped these tropes in his Osprey book.

I'd probably think they look pretty much identical in equipment terms to their Saxon opposition. Northern ridge helms or spangenhelms, mail and (more rare) scale. Flat or convex round shields and lots of spears and javelins.

[James Morris]

I haven't got a lot to what has already been said, but a few years back our group created 28mm armies to recreate the Battle of Catraeth as told in Y Gododdin.  There's a large number of pictures here with some additional links: https://mogsymakes.net/y-gododdin/