Contract laser cutting - now with farcical responses.

[beefcake]

Really? I wonder how much of that the actual designer sees. I'm also converting to NZD so almost $100 an hour for making some lines on the computer.

[Gary Peach]

Hi

I know the Styrene and Chlorene bit its a standard response the gas, bit...  Ive been through it and its the standards comment, thats why I made it really.  I had some samples done in styrene and the truth is, the gas is nasty but its actually very hard to set the lasers up and prevent it melting tooooo much, even tried as etch to snap it and it was still melting off badly.

The material bit as you say is about flexibility etc...  and again its who you go to, but I was just listing what the standard reasons are.

As said Sarissa...  glad you in talks. They are really good, they have a number of laser different sizes and powers and have a go...  its the only way to learn.

Please dont think I was being negative in the response it was just by way of explaining what may be and has been the background to all the crap you, and I have heard.

As for CAD files Im happy FOC if you get the need to cross check outside your CAD system.

Hope all goes well with Sarissa.

[Brandlin]

It's not I'm afraid.

It slightly on the high side but certainly in the bounds of reality.

It absolutely NOT a ridiculous per hour price for a professional organisation with trained engineering staff. This was one of the larger organisations. My issue is that they're trying to redraw some thing that doesn't need it, and the idea than I can sketch either the Pryngul tower (100 + pieces) or the DROPship (80ish) is absurd.

Really? I wonder how much of that the actual designer sees. I'm also converting to NZD so almost $100 an hour for making some lines on the computer.

I've regularly quoted for multi million pound jobs built up from engineers hourly rate above this and won work. If you're running a company you have overheads. Development, training, it, payroll, hr, finance teams, legal, sales. And you're buying all that capability.

"Making some lines on the computer" is also a bit insulting to a trained cad operator/engineer.


Gary - I didn't think you were negative. Though I didn't agree with all your comments, many I did.

I agree, styrene (HIPS) is difficult. And yes the edges aren't as sharp as ideally i would want, but it is do-able. I know that because I've had them cut dozens of time before. I'd prefer another material, but the unique element of my models is that they are curved. So I need a material that at 1mm and 0.5mm thicknesses bends like plasticard. I've had people telling me to cut from acrylic instead.

I tend to avoid engraving on styrene as it significantly weakens the material, and any curve put in it then causes it to snap. However I have used very light surface detail to highlight location points or other details. One of the issues with this is that without engraving you can't add part numbers to components on the spruce. So the assembly instructions start looking like this...
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B06t3PB5k709OWRjYTcwYWMtY2I0OS00MjQ3LTg5ZmItODljMTQ3YzllYWIx&hl=en_GB

For those of you who aren't aware, this is the model those instructions produce.

[Elk101]

It's not I'm afraid.

It slightly on the high side but certainly in the bounds of reality.

cheers

James

James is right, that's only about what you'd pay for an architectural technician per hour (roughly; and that's up North,  not your London rates!).

[maxxon]

Really? I wonder how much of that the actual designer sees. I'm also converting to NZD so almost $100 an hour for making some lines on the computer.

Clients are charged for my work at roughly 100 euros per hour and all I do is play on the computer...

If my car needs fixing, the mechanic charges 70-100 euros per hour. Plumbers, electricians etc . regularly command similar rates. Heck, even a cleaner (normal household chores) charges 40-50 euros per hour.

The thing you need to understand is that I don't get paid anywhere near 100 euros per hour. There's taxes, mandatory insurances, company overhead etc. to take care of before I see a penny of it.

[Gary Peach]

Have you had Rowmark suggested?  Used a lot, buy railway modelers, Glues with EMA Plastic Glues...  EMA are a model parts supplier, domes and things http://www.ema-models.co.uk/.

Rowmark is supposed to be a little more rigid and less likely to roll on the edges with cutting.

Just thought I would add this about Styrene, which is the real reason for people turning it down... (Laserscript response to cutting it with a laser)

It's fine to cut it with a laser, it doesn't contain anything that gives of noxious gasses BUT it won't cut very well and will usually result in a rounded and discoloured edge as well as giving off quite a lot of black flecks of soot.
The Flecks won't do the machine a lot of good if they get sucked into your electrical cooling fans.

HIPS is best processed with routers or mechanical cutting such as CNC mills etc

To sum up? it's not dangerous but will look rubbish

As for Hourly rates...  Well, having been a 'Designer' for too many years, I find the rate vs return, eg actual work done, never seems to match, and many of my clients have said so too.  It always makes me laugh when I hear £150ph and then the lead time for works etc...  and my clients then ask me the same, and the hours it takes...  I have to say, when I receive the sub standard, poorly drawn, non-BS standard trash that is said to have taken hours, and then takes me time to clean up in an email, Im shocked many can charge what they charge.

Its also amusing when I type time in Acad to find the drawing only has a few hours elapsed and the hours charged are 4 times this...  plus 'design' charges etc...

If you look at the agency rates too they wont match the £100ph...  its £28ph for the CAD Scot.

This probably explains the suspicious way they viewed you CAD files, and also the way some said it needed reworking, because they couldnt import it properly as they dont actually know how to change settings.

Its a mine field out there...  roll a dice make your move.

[Brandlin]

Have you had Rowmark suggested?  Used a lot, buy railway modelers, Glues with EMA Plastic Glues...  EMA are a model parts supplier, domes and things http://www.ema-models.co.uk/.

Rowmark is supposed to be a little more rigid and less likely to roll on the edges with cutting.

Just thought I would add this about Styrene, which is the real reason for people turning it down... (Laserscript response to cutting it with a laser)

It's fine to cut it with a laser, it doesn't contain anything that gives of noxious gasses BUT it won't cut very well and will usually result in a rounded and discoloured edge as well as giving off quite a lot of black flecks of soot.
The Flecks won't do the machine a lot of good if they get sucked into your electrical cooling fans.

HIPS is best processed with routers or mechanical cutting such as CNC mills etc

To sum up? it's not dangerous but will look rubbish

Gary. You are confusing me and not making much sense.

Rowmark appears to be a company, not a material, they produce 2 products aimed in the laser market. Ultra-grave and laser-max. Both those products are multiple laminate acrylic based sheets for laser engraving to produce name plates etc. neither of them are HIPS equivalents or even flexible plastics... Unless I am missing something? None of those products are a suitable replacement for HIPS in my models.

EMA I know well, I advertise them on my blog. You say "EMA plastic glue" which I assume you mean their liquid solvent cement. http://www.ema-models.co.uk/index.php/materials/adhesives/liquid-solvent-cement-500ml.html

Although marketed as EMA glue this is a traditional solvent weld cement. So like similar products from almost any plastic model company, will weld styrene abs acrylic and numerous other plastics.

So, I am confused what you are suggesting...

As to the comments you highlight from laser script. Yes, as I have said many times before, HIPS is trickier to cut than other products, so I understand why some people don't want to. But to say it will "look rubbish" is patently nonsense.

I have had hundreds of sheets cut and sold hundreds of kits cut in HIPS. I've always been happy with the results but more importantly I have never had a single customer complaint, and my models have been very positively received.

I'm not sure what angle you are trying to promote? In your previous post you tried to tell me that cutting HIPS gave off chlorine (which is not chemically possible) and must not be cut in the UK. Now you are telling me I should use a rigid acrylic laminate that isn't flexible?