Aventine Miniatures Horses Question

[ShinRa]

Hi all,

I've just been putting together some Aventine Pyrrhic Agema cavalry and I can't help but notice that the horses look small... very small, which is at odds with Aventine who otherwise appears to be very chunky. Does anyone else see this or is it just me?

EDIT: It occurs to me that I really should show you all what I'm talking about!



Here is one of the Agema cavalrymen next to another Aventine miniature, a Thureophoroi. Does the horse look undersized to anyone else?

[Captain Blood]

It's not just you. Actually there are far worse examples than that. There was one Aventine mounted figure I saw a while back where the rider's feet were almost on the floor, he being so large and the horse being so small.
However, when I've pointed this out before, I've been greeted with a chorus of 'well all horses were ponies in those days, so the proportions are perfectly okay'.
Personally I don't think that's right, but hey - Aventine are popular figures with many people. You pays your money and takes your choice 

[delbruck]

Yes, ancient horses were smaller, although proportionally thicker in the neck and body - so yes, Aventine aren't perfect.

Persians & Greeks

[ShinRa]

Hmm, it sure does look strange having them so small though. Does anyone know if anyone has tried Aventine miniatures on horses from other brands?

I sure wish there were Perry plastic horses that would fit the bill!

[delbruck]

Sassanids

[delbruck]

Romans

[SotF]

Yes, ancient horses were smaller, although proportionally thicker in the neck and body - so yes, Aventine aren't perfect.

Persians & Greeks

I'm actually kind of wondering if the amount of shift in the artwork is closer to reality, or artistic conventions for the time. Anyone know if archeological finds match the artwork or not?

[Captain Blood]

My thoughts exactly. I'd be willing to treat archaeological evidence of diminutive ancient horses as compelling. Sculptures? Not so much. It may just be an artistic convention of those times to show men as larger and more impressive than their horses. They're not photo-realistic portrayals. They're art. Depictions of horses and animals have always been heavily stylised in art, right through to the Victorian era - made to look larger, smaller, or with certain features or body parts shrunken or enlarged. Most horses in famous art (think Napoleon crossing the Alps), look like no real horse i've ever seen. And that lion in the first bas-relief certainly looks different to a real lion...

[Mad Doc Morris]

First off, I've not experienced any glaringly misproportioned horses from Aventine yet. The example above looks a bit odd, but to me it's not completely out of shape. That said, their horses are not the best sculpts in the world. Other manufacturers suffer from the same issue, and a few (Gripping Beast, Crusader, Artizan) have therefore adopted horse armatures by Ebob. You could try to get hold of them separately or buy a few generic ones directly from Ebob (here). They should fit Aventine figures as well.

Ancient horses are well documented in archaeological material, especially for the Roman period. However, as today, they vary a lot in size and physique. Also it is rather difficult to allocate a specimen to a certain work environment. Horses found in a more or less definite military context were perhaps relatively large and stocky – but, of course, still small in comparison to modern breeds: A more recent study (available in parts here) mentions a variation of height between 138 cm to 154 cm. That is about the size of modern Haflinger or Camargue horses, the latter being used by Marcus Junkelmann for his famous reconstructions of Roman cavalry equipment (sadly still not available in English IIRC).
Of course, on average people were a bit smaller back then, too. According to Arrian and Vegetius, though, cavalrymen should be about 175 cm tall, and that's not particularly dwarf-sized.

In essence, most miniature sculptors (if they do care at all) seem to rely on modern reconstructions by Peter Connolly and, as mentioned, Marcus Junkelmann. Both argued for smallish horses in the classical period, based on genuine studies of pictorial, literary and archaeological evidence, and I'm happy to trust in that.

[warburton]

Personally, I'm with Captain Blood.

To the OP, that horse would way too small for me and I would replace it with something more suitable. Just my personal view.

[Aventine]

The size of horses is always a good debate. Adam made ours that way as he thought that was the best way to go, others either agree or disagree, here are mine just before the basing and I am happy with them. To accommodate all differing views we will also sell the riders on their own(started doing this with the Sassanids and will get around to listing the rest sometime) just ask.



Again all above posts have their own merit, it is really down to what you want or do not want.

Cheers
Keith

[ShinRa]

Thanks for all of the input and advice everyone, I appreciate all of it! Keith, it was actually that picture that caused me to put these figures on my Christmas list :-)

My personal taste requires me to find bigger horses though, does anyone have any recommendations for a good fit? I'm looking at Conquest Games plastic horses that their Norman Knights ride for a starting point.

[delbruck]

A&A sells seperate horses (under accessories).
http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/products/?p=9
I have some Aventine riders on these and Foundry horses.