Which WW2 skirmish rules?

[GregX999]

I'd like to get into some WW2 skirmish gaming and am looking for advise on a set of rules. I don't know anyone who currently plays WW2, so getting what others have isn't as issue - I'll most likely be getting my dad and my brother into it.

I've heard of Iron Ivan's rules and Battlefield Evolution, but have never seen the books or seen them played. But I do have Iron Ivan's FIW rules, "This Very Ground", and they seem pretty decent. But I don't know if there are others.

- I'm looking to put between 10-40 figs per side (5-10 per squad), sometimes with 1-3 vehicles per side. Maybe larger battles down the road, but it'll be awhile before I have enough figs painted for that.
- All my other figs and terrain are 28mm, so I want to stick to that.
- I like scenario play, and I don't care if there is a point system or not.
- I prefer quicker, more fun rules sets to super-detailed sets. But I still want something that has a "realistic WW2 feel" to it - good rules for suppression, etc.
- I prefer alternate activation to IgoUgo (but I've seen some IgoUgo rules that have pretty interesting ideas in order to keep the non-active player from getting bored).
- I like rules with random activations, or even some turns where not every unit gets activated.

So... what do I need to get?

Greg

[General M@yhem]

The Iron Ivan rules are fun and easy. There are rules for supression and other stuff.Plus there are extra supplements for expanding armies.

[whisperin_al]

My own favourites are Nuts! by Two Hour Wargames which are based on their reaction system.  I find this gives a quite different feel and rewards the use of proper tactics.  The core rules on which these are based - Chain Reaction - are available free from their site: http://www.angelfire.com/az3/twohourwargames/index.html

For slightly larger games (but still at 1:1 but with a squad being the smallest manoeuvre unit) I move on to I Ain't Been Shot, Mum! by the Too Fat Lardies which uses their card initiative system.  You have one card per unit plus one for each "big man", various special cards plus the tea break card (when the latter comes up the turn ends).  "Big men" are the officers and NCOs who motivate the units.

Both rule sets have very active Yahoo groups for support.

[WillieB]

Two big favourites of mine are Iron Ivans' Disposable Heroes which will give you a very intense and relatively quick game. Quite easy to learn but a lot more difficult to master.
I only use it for the SCW, but the basic book covers WWII of course.

Another one is IABSM (I Ain't Been Shot Mum) from the TooFatLardies.
Very refreshing and the rules are superbly accurate. However you need to do a few things yourself like making up unit cards and such.
The latter one is truly for 'mature' wargamers as not all eventualities are covered. Very gentleman- like. You'll love it.

[Durutti]

Troops Weapons and Tactics from the TooFatLardies would probably fit the bill very nicely.
Card driven system with a unique way activating squads, theres nothing quite as frustrating as having the tea break card turned over when only a few of your troops have been activated. 
Start small, and build up to bigger games.
I use the rules for my SCW games, and they work really well

[fastolfrus]

You might want to look at "Panzerfauste" by Wessex Games.

They are actually a set of fantasy WWII rules, but work well for WWII if you just ignore the fantasy races:

http://www.blease.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WG.panzerfauste.html

The morale rules are very good, and really form the core of the game system.

Plus they are a very cheap set so you're not risking much.

[leadfool]

You might check out the rule set "CROSSFIRE" by Arty Contliffe.  If you can find it.  Movement units are 1/2 squads with 3 figures per base.  I have played it with each movement element as a single figure as well.  Fairly simple combat and control rules, along with army lists that reflect the character of any WWII participant.  There are yahoo and other groups that have come up with various derivitives, such as the spanish civil war, nam etc.

But what makes the game is the completely unique activation system.  The game has NO Rulers and NO TURNS.  All movement and shooting is line of sight.  The player is rewarded for success.  You keep activating units, (With a limit on vehicles) until you fail.  Then your opponent gets to activate his units until he fails.  It is very different and VERY intense.  You forget about your other resources, just like in real combat, as you focus on the problem in front of you.

All units start hidden.  They only show up on the board as they move or fire.  The board needs to be played with alot of terrain.  As you play every bush, or tree becomes you focus as you worry about what is in or behind it. 

It is hard to explain, but you should try it.  The stalingrad scenario is really something.  It is the only rule set I have played where at the end of the game you are proud of what you have left, not what you have killed.  I once played a game and technically met my minimal victory conditions without losing a unit.  My teamate's troops were shoot up, and we only barely got our minimal objective, but I felt good as I did not have to write any letters home to little lead mothers. 

You should really try it.

Have fun

[pbeccas]

I'm a Disposable Heroes fanboy.  Me and the guys usually paint up an average of 30 to 40 figures per side.  Each section/squad of 10 to 13 men is usually divided up into half teams.  For example my Late War SS are made up like this:
Command Team - 5 figures (Officer, Senior NCO, Radioman, 2 x Riflemen with Panzerfausts)
Anti Tank Team - 2 Figures with Panzerschect
1st Section - 10 figures
2nd section - 10 figures
HMG Team - 3 figures
Mortar Team - 3 figures
Sniper Team - 2 figures
To make up a full platoon you can paint up a 3rd section of 10 figures.

Highly recommend you join the Iron Ivan yahoo group and have a look at the photo section and play around in the files section.

[Remington]

I am also becoming a big fan of Disposable Heroes. The ruleset is relatively easy to go through and not complicated. It only gets a bit dice-heavy with vehicles on the table. The guys behind it seem to have laid-back gamers in mind. Their help and suggestions in their forum are always given with harmonic games among friends in mind. That sounds awfully carebear, but I like that.

[pbeccas]

I found this review of Disposable Heroes.  I think it's a pretty good overview.

"The game is based around the platoon (or one platoon per player for multi-platoon games). The game begins with a roll for initiative where both players add their highest ranking Commander's Guts (leadership) score. The highest roll decides if they want to go first or allow his opponent to go first.

The game turn sequence is a series of alternating unit activations. During a players activation, he selects one unit to activate. That unit will act together (as a unit) and can move and fire, fire and move, or engage in close combat. The movement rates and distance you can shoot is determined by how far you move. For example, if you maneuver (6"), your firing is done at half the ROF and half range (some weapons, such as SMGs aren't affected by this). When a unit has activated you place a counter next to it to indicate it has gone.

When you do fire, only half of the unit fires, but what models shoot is up to you (so you may choose to shoot the SMG and the LMG in the unit. This is important, and it is to represent that at any given time in action, not everyone is always firing their weapons. Simply put, in WWII, units did not fire to 100% efficiency. They were not firing squads. Some guys are firing, some loading, others observing or keeping their heads down etc.

When you fire, you roll a number of D10 based on the weapons firing (their ROF) and your to hit is based on your Accuracy score (which is almost always 5). Cover modifies this down (you want to roll low). The type of cover determines by how much the ACC is lowered. Heavy cover has a -4, for example.

Once you determine hits, you roll for wounds based on the AP (anti-personell) of the weapon. The player whos unit was fired upon chooses which casualties are removed. This way a unit can keep the squad weapons in action (representing assistants taking over etc.). There is a rule to allow leaders and special weapons to be removed though.

Movement distances are not modified by terrain. And cover has a nice abstraction to it: if one model in a unit can make it into the cover, the whole unit is pulled in and gets the benefit of cover. LOS is also done by cover. If you can draw LOS to the cover a unit is in, you can fire at the unit. No more drawing LOS to individual models (which are static and lifeless compared to real soldiers-who actively take cover).

There is a defensive "snap fire". A unit may snap fire at an enemy unit who moves within 12" of them, making units defensive in close so that you can't simply waltz in front of the enemy expecting them not to react.

Close combat is point blank and brutal. Once engaged, units will fight til one side is wiped out (surrenders, etc.). You have to make a Gut check to charge in and nearby units for both sides may sometimes be pulled in. If you are pinned when you get charged, you always fight last, meaning the units that pins the enemy then maneuvers into position to take them out will be sucessful rewarding realistic tactics.

Gut checks (morale) are taken every time a unit takes fire, regardless of the casualties. Casualties cause a -1 for each one inflicted and whatever various weapon morale modifiers apply (LMGs for example, cause a -2 MM). Also, cover modifies this back up. Meaning units in cover will negate some of the above negatives (but will only ever cancel them out, they won't take the units morale higher than it would be naturally. You can also use nearby leaders to bolster your morale (if they are within command radius-ie within their Guts score in inches away). So keeping your Lieutenant around is useful...they can also auto rally units as part of the commanders Activation.

When units fail their Gut checks, they are pinned (activating them if they aren't already). Once pinned they must rally as part of their activation to act again. If a unit is pinned twice, they get pushed back 6" away. If they get pinned three times it is 9". So you can push the enemy out of positions.

Vehicles and AT guns etc. act somewhat like infantry (they activate the same way) and they have various movement rates. The big difference is that vehicles have to acquire their target before they can fire on it (meaning they are not "point and click" fire breathing monsters). Acquiring is a little like firing but with different modifiers. Once a vehicle acquires its target it can shoot at it. This represents several things: one, a vehicle is a crew of multiple individuals who must coordinate their activities. Two, it also represents the vulnerability of vehicles in close in terrain against infantry (who are much more mobile and can fire at them without hidnrance). Three, it means vehicles have incentive to maneuver for that nice shot. Once you become acquired, it often means you have to decide whether to slug it out or redeploy for a better shot. You will find vehicles actually MOVE in this game. No parking hub to hub and shooting it out like a battery of guns.

There are rules for lots of other things as well. Hidden units, setting up trip wires for heavy weapons (along which you can snap fire or ambush units who cross over-great for AT guns).There are rules for indirect firing and artillery, snipers, air attacks, off board artillery, para drops, etc. etc.

Lots of things to give you the complete small unit skirmish package.

Overall, DH is a small unit skirmish game centered around the platoon. You essentially play the role of the platoon commander. You will be making platoon commander level decisions. You will be maneuvering and fighting with half sections or teams abiding by the "two steps down rule". This means that the platoon commander worries about what his squads and half squads are doing, and less about what individuals are doing (though of course, the individuals are important as to what weapons fire, etc. etc.).

You will NOT be making individual combat decisions such as: "Private Snuffy goes prone and fires three shots from his Garand.

That works for individual skirmish games, whereas DH is small unit action.

This is a game where you can put a full platoon and support and vehicles on the table and play a game to conclusion in an hour (once familiar with the rules of course).

You will find that the game plays fast, rewards real tactics, and is fun. You will pcik up the basics within minutes of playing. We often have players at conventions pretty much running things themselves halfway through the game

In short, I think you will like DH, if you are ready to approach it as nothing remotely like Battleground. They are two entirely diffetrent concepts and will play very differently.

If you accept that DH is not as detailed down to the individual level, you will find that DH is detailed at the platoon tactical level, but also that some important things are abstracted to achieve realism in results. It is a system dedicated to realistic results, not realism in process.

I hope that helps give you an idea about the system, and that you give it a try. I think you will like it!"

[GregX999]

Hey, thanks for all the great advice guys!

In response to that last post...

When units fail their Gut checks, they are pinned (activating them if they aren't already). Once pinned they must rally as part of their activation to act again. If a unit is pinned twice, they get pushed back 6" away. If they get pinned three times it is 9". So you can push the enemy out of positions.

Does this "push-back" feel realistic when playing? Leaving cover when pinned (even to retreat) doesn't sound like something many soldiers would do.

In short, I think you will like DH, if you are ready to approach it as nothing remotely like Battleground. They are two entirely diffetrent concepts and will play very differently.

How is Battleground different (in general)? From the review, I think I'd like DH, but I have no idea how Battleground plays.

The Too Fat Lardies games look interesting as well - but their website is so hard to use that I can't tell what's going on as far as rules and supplements. Their TW&T rules seem like they'd be the right rules. Do the IABSM supplements work for TW&T?

Being a bit of a lazy gamer, one question I have is, do any/all of these rules provide descriptions, historical notes and stats for lots of different equipment, units, vehicles, etc? I don't have a shelf full of Osprey books or anything like that nor do I have the time learn every model of armored vehicle used by (for example) the Brits in North Africa - there seems to be hundreds of models and variants of vehicles used in WW2. Alternatively, can anyone recommend a couple of good books that cover (in general terms - or for mid to late war - N.A., Italy, France) unit organization, equipment and vehicles?

Greg

[harmonkeys]

I can't add much to what has been said except that Crossfire (which can easily be played at 1:1 also) is the most exciting, most fun set of rules that I've ever played. They also are the rules that have most rewarded realistic fire & movement tactics.
That being said Crossfire is not for everybody (since these rules are radically different in many ways than any other set I've ever seen). If your opponent already balks at random or card based activation then Crossfire will blow his mind.

I also play and really like Disposable Heroes. Though it uses an alternating activation system rather than a card based system.
yours
Scott Pasha

[redzed]

Do the IABSM supplements work for TW&T?

mostly, TW&T is for platoon-ish sized games (ideal for 28mm) and IABSM is for company sized games. The supplements contain a lot of well researched information usable for both games, the scenarios contained within them are generally too big for TW&T (unless you have a big table) but can be scaled down.
The Yahoo group is well worth joining.

Being a bit of a lazy gamer, one question I have is, do any/all of these rules provide descriptions, historical notes and stats for lots of different equipment, units, vehicles, etc?

yes, that info is in the back of the book
There are also some supplements using TW&T for different periods, Korea, SCW etc.
If you game 28mm go for TW&T.

[AKULA]

Crossfire as a rules set is very different from the traditional style of rules, and is worth a go at some point, but i only bought one set of rules, i'd go for the Too Fat Lardies creation - see Z's comments for which is appropriate for the size of game you aer planning.

Have just bought TW&T, and unlike the last dozen or so sets of rules i've bought, these will actually get used.

 

[pbeccas]

Hey, thanks for all the great advice guys!

In response to that last post...

When units fail their Gut checks, they are pinned (activating them if they aren't already). Once pinned they must rally as part of their activation to act again. If a unit is pinned twice, they get pushed back 6" away. If they get pinned three times it is 9". So you can push the enemy out of positions.

Does this "push-back" feel realistic when playing? Leaving cover when pinned (even to retreat) doesn't sound like something many soldiers would do.

The first pin is the unit hitting the dirt which maybe is in the open.  The second pinning is called Fall Back.  The unit must fall back to the nearest cover 0 to 6 inches away.  A third pinning is called rout.  The unit runs a full 9 inches.  It's hard to get a unit to rout because once its in cover hitting becomes tough.  It works really well.  It's easy to rally especially if you have a NCO or LT nearby.  So 8 times out of 10 the pinned unit is back in the game next turn.  Unless you start losing NCO's.  Then life becomes tough.