Italian Wars Swiss pikemen

[Ignatieff]

Does anyone do a 28mm Swiss pikeman with the characteristic pike at the charge, above the head, pointing slightly down?  I can't find one anywhere, but may not be looking in the right places.

Thanks

Steve

[pws]

Like these?

http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=fantasy-2528mm-humans
http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=historical-2528mm-renaissance

http://www.mirliton.it/product_info.php?pName=spearmen-1-first-rank-&cName=fantasy-2528mm-humans
http://www.mirliton.it/product_info.php?pName=spearmen-2-second-rank&cName=fantasy-2528mm-humans
http://www.mirliton.it/product_info.php?pName=spearmen-3-standing&cName=fantasy-2528mm-humans

[bluechi]

Foundry , perry( change some heads), TAG....

[olicana]

I know the pose, see lad at the back below, but I don't know of any one who does Swiss in that pose. Essex does Landsknechts in it (see below) and not all of their Swiss are pictured, so it might be worth an ask.

From my understanding, Swiss and Landsknechts looked pretty similar for the bulk of the Italian Wars (though the Swiss were a little more tame, apparently) and the Swiss dress most commonly seen on tables (including mine) are actually in dress from the very early part of the Italian Wars / Burgundian Wars. If that's true you could use these Essex figures as they are, because they are not excessively flouncy.

[Ignatieff]

Yep, James that's the fellow. Having wielded a pike for many a year, I know how hard that pose is to hold for any length of time, but it does look good, is Swiss, and if you mix it with traditional charge and port postures makes he front of the block look very distinctive.

[THE CID]

Foundry do late medieval in that pose.

[Ignatieff]

Foundry do late medieval in that pose.

Bingo!  Thanks Sid!

[Ignatieff]

Though they do look a bit early for the Italian Wars 

[Ignatieff]

But here's a thought, has anyone actually seen any contemporary evidence of that overhead pike position?  Apart from the dummy in Zurich museum, and the fact that George Gush mentions it in his venerable 'Renaissance Armies", I actually haven't come across it in a period pic. 

[Dr. Zombie]

Casting room miniatures have some as well. They are not fully over the head but at chin height.

[Condottiere]

But here's a thought, has anyone actually seen any contemporary evidence of that overhead pike position?  Apart from the dummy in Zurich museum, and the fact that George Gush mentions it in his venerable 'Renaissance Armies", I actually haven't come across it in a period pic. 

Probably of the same provenance perpetuated as the incorrectly translated Hawkwood's two dismounted men-at-arms wielding a single lance...

Fighting with the German Longsword



Fighting With Staff and Spear

I don't know why the overhand is associated with the Swiss, as it's an upper guard referred to as Ochs, a stance prior to thrusting, not a position employed by everyone in the third or fourth ranks. Earlier pike fighting was a little looser, with spears 10-15ft in length, in contrast with the late 16th and 17th Century drill based porting positions, like in Jacob de Gheyn's The Exercise of Armes.

What I do know is that the Swiss style of pike fighting involved shorter long spears and/or holding the haft closer to the spearhead or near the point of balance, since they preferred closing in with their opponents. Landsknechts preferred fancy fencing, so long spears were held near the point of balance or closer to the lower end, maximizing the reach of the pike, a style used by everyone else, like these Eastern Romans:

   

[olicana]

But here's a thought, has anyone actually seen any contemporary evidence of that overhead pike position?  Apart from the dummy in Zurich museum, and the fact that George Gush mentions it in his venerable 'Renaissance Armies", I actually haven't come across it in a period pic. 

Now there's a thing. I too (owning that book) have long held that belief but, having briefly scanned some of the other books I have using their index I have not come across another mention of it. I felt certain it would be in Oman but if it is I can't find it. Taylor, no. Turnball, no. I have other books to look in but, how interesting.

[painterman]

There are several images in Schillings Berne Chronicles of Swiss using pikes overarm in melee scenes - mixed in with other grips - which would date from 1470/80s, so could assume that this practice continued into Italian Wars as pike blocks continued to be prominent?
Simon.

[bluechi]

They use this handling altough in the italian wars...the only real chanche to make a hit from the third rank in the bulk...

[Condottiere]

Notice the shoulder height level usage?

Swiss re-enactors either late 16th or 17th Century:



The third rank wields the pike the same way as those in the 2nd rank...



The Brandenburg troops in the "Kirchweih von Affalterbach" 1502



The overarm stance was for individuals, not some choreographed stance by a whole rank...