Wargames Show Standards

[tin shed gamer]

I think this sums it up better for me.
If every table was ubber pretty then it'd be more like going to a festival and seeing nothing but the main stage every day. You get home you can't remember half of the big names you've seen.
But chuck in the unsigned tent and that odd stage in the tent near the beer tent and ethnic tat stalls ,and you've a story or two for when you get back.

Don't get me wrong I'll still play spot the ego with a shoe box on the table,and who's stumped up for bragging right.

My hats off to anyone whose been daft enough to drag themselves there five hours before i rock up and wander round in a mildly judgmental fashion.staring at your labour.
We all do, its human nature too.

The honest answer is I wouldn't do one. But I'm glad you do.

There is a difference in standards at Railway shows and Wargames shows.
It can be boiled down to Railway are to a certain extent about portraying realism and ignoring the toy. 'Wargames show' its a name that kind of makes it hard to ignore.

Should their be a minimum standard promoted by show organisers? Absolutely its a SHOW its in the name. Your excepted to stump up money to get in. It's not the village fete. Nor is it an indoor market. It's a show. So make sure there's something to see. If it was a trade fair you'd have standards for displays.

[Lysandros]

I would say I'm a diorama gamer . The spectacle is everything , the landscape must achieve the fullness , beauty of a very high quality model rail set up . Nothing flat , inbuilt terrian , texture , each move recreates a scene . The game is second for me , winning means nothing in my case , the joy is  each move has a epic richness look and feel ,practicality is way down the list .
As an example, less  is more , I would rather have 1 handmade  quality  building than a host of MDF Ok ish stuff . I'm very methodical , I don't jump around various scales , time period's.
I just always try to improve what ł have , upgrade if possible . One great piece of terrian on flat boards  , mats is like taking Harry Kane and surronding him with Sutton Utd players .
This is why I find shows rather bland affairs , are they worth making the effort . In my case as most games leave me cold what is the point ?
Just friendships make it rewarding for attending the odd show , sadly not much else .

[Pijlie]

I have been wondering if and how I should respond to this thread once more.

I have brought a lot (and I mean dozens) of participation games to shows over the years. I never received any financial compensation nor did I desire or expect one. My motivation has always been to attract people to- and inspire them for the hobby and entertain them with a good and good looking game. I like to think I have been quite succesfull in that endeavour. People certainly seem to think so.

I, too, think that a table at a show should look good. But I have learned that a participation game shouldn't be too good looking, or it will intimidate people away. From playing, but also from getting inspired. Beause why should you feel inspired by something you cannot possibly achieve yourself?

I also learned that people get more enjoyment and inspiration from playing a good looking excellent game than from gazing at a dazzling display table that you are not allowed to touch.

Any comparison with model train shows is pointless. A model train table -especially at a show- is made for display. No one expects to be able to play with it. Any dismissal of anything else than a splendid looking table at a wargames show is pointless as well. Because people can still mightily enjoy a game on a "merely" good looking one and come away with big plans for gaming and collecting. And might find that way more important than being awed by someone's modelling skills that cannot emulate anyway. 

If you come to shows to gaze at stupefyingly beautiful tables and nothing else, well, more power to you. But lots of people (fortunately) come to lots of shows to learn about, play and enjoy good games on good looking tables without the need or ability to build all of that themselves.

When I walk around at shows I see plenty of good looking tables. If anything I see too few people playing at them.

[Silent Invader]

My own experience is perhaps a tad different as I’ve only been to Wargames shows I think a mere three times.

On Sunday, due to an airport run with some time to fill I had the choice of stopping by at either a wargames show, a model railway exhibition, or neither. I opted for the railway, mostly because I was wanting to see examples of completed terrain and also have a mine railway project bubbling away.  Just to clarify, I had no expectation of buying railway bits (I already have them and they’re in the relatively obscure - for the UK - German TT scale).

It’s only the third time I’ve been to a rail show (I think 8 and 13 years ago) and I noticed a difference: there were a lot more participation layouts than before. There were the really big exhibition demos (often accompanied by publicity material for punters and marketing material for other show hosts) that surely must receive some recompense for appearing. But there were also smaller displays, often with intricate terrain, where punters were encouraged to participate in some way. There were also a lot of layouts for kids and while white, middle-aged+ Male predominated, there was a much, much better representation of race, sex and age.

Did I buy anything. Yep, some 2” tall O scale cornstalks from a ‘railway and wargmjng’ terrain company that I hadn’t known of before.

Edit: Just to add - I’ve never partipated at a wargming or railway show and have absolutely no interest in doing so - I go to look and learn and (much less so) to buy.

[eilif]

Facinating discussion. I'm always interested to hear how gaming is conducted in other regions and conuntries.

The only show I've attended the past couple years has been Adepticon.  It's a major show and it is generally jam-packed with fantastic layouts, figures and terrain.  There are some weak links here and there, but generally everything from the comp tables in the main hall to the SAGA guys in the far off corner rooms have great looking events.

Google "Adepticon" and you'll see alot of what I mean.

I run a 28mm battlemech game each year. I bring my A-Game and try to make it better looking and more impressive every year.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/03/30/aar-mech-attack-at-adepticon-2017/

Am I right in assuming demonstrators get expenses paid at the very least?

Generally not, but it varies.  At Adepticon those running events and their assistants receive a voucher that covers free admission and a bit more.  The "bit more" just about covers the cost of the "Premium" upgrade which includes an amazing swag bag (usually over $100 in stuff) or it can be applied toward gaming events, swag, etc.  They also will provide you with some award medals and prizes for the winners of your event.

The Swag Bag and free admission isn't the reason I run the event, but it was definitely one of the factors that made me decide that when life got busier and I only had time to do one convention that season it was going to be Adepticon.

Folks will go back and forth about motivations for gaming, greed, etc, but I put a good bit of money and ALOT of time and effort into my game and I'm going to generally try and run it where there is the most interest and where I'm getting a bit for my effort.

[Elk101]

Just read through your link, very nicely put together game. I don't think you could be accused of a lack of effort! 

[eilif]

Just read through your link, very nicely put together game. I don't think you could be accused of a lack of effort! 

Thanks. It's been a labor of love that we've been running for 5 years now.  Gets better every time. 
This coming year I'm going to add a strip of tarmac with several custom toybashed spaceships!

[MediumAl]

Unless I've missed it, no-one has mentioned one factor that will affect any judgement of the standards, and that is expectations. Before the Internet, the places to see anything new were shows or Miniature Wargames magazine, and I suspect that the channels through which eye-candy would reach MW would be much more restricted than now. 

We are now all used to seeing an amazing variety of wonderful stuff.

In 1994 we put on a demo game at SELWG with a 15mm collection of New Kingdom Egyptians, Hittites, Sea Peeps and the like, with a scratchbuilt town. There was a river which had used poured resin for the water and it was that that seemed to be different enough to attract more comment than anything else. It might have been done at other shows before, but lots of people didn't appear to have seen it in a wargames context then. Is there anyone who has not seen it nowadays?

I'm a bit surprised that anyone thinks that a game would be put on to get free entry. You might get a couple of people willing to help for that reason, but is that much hassle worth saving a few quid?

I don't think paying costs would motivate people. We did it because we wanted to, and part of it was an ego thing in that we thought we could do it well. It worked to some extent. Lots of good feedback, prizes at SELWG, Salute and Armageddon/Colours over the 2-3 years we did it, but we got a bit jaded and stopped around 96 or so.

Some shows have demand for putting on games. I tried to get a slot at Salute last year for an upgraded version of the biblical collection, but only got on to a waiting list.

I think fewer shows would concentrate the quality. Special deals or new releases might add to the attraction, but they have to work for the traders as well.

I like the idea of having a purpose for the game and actually saying what it is. Not thought it through entirely but there might be mileage in that and it could help the public to appreciate what they are seeing. It might be a game mechanism, a modelling technique, information about a particular army/battle/tactic. I reckon that lots of useful stuff could get missed if that is not apparent.

Don't like scruffy or unpainted. Basic does not have to mean scruffy, and there might be advantages of basic, perhaps portable, easy to put together and get gaming, price. As for unpainted, I think that even if you don't want to paint figures because you are really interested in the gaming element, then spraying them neatly and making it clear that they are just being used as counters would be fine by me as long as the main aims of the exhibit are being displayed. (Tell me it's speed painting and I might just suspect you're taking the P**s though!)

We have such a variety of interests and preferences that there is no perfect format for a show. Maybe the shows have to decide what their aims are, who their target audience is and how they satisfy that particular audience. I suspect that Partizan is a good example - people go there expecting eye-candy, and that seems to be what they get.

Coming back to the initial point though, I don't think we can say that standards are slipping with any certainty. It depends on how much you enjoy a show in a given year, and that degree of subjectivity makes anything hard to measure.

 

[eilif]

Expectations can be a huge thing. I know that at Adepticon the expectation of attendees for great looking stuff helps me to keep up my game.

I think the social media aspect expectation works in reverse also.  If only folks at a show are going to see your work, there are some good reasons to put on a good looking event.  If there is the potential to have your game on a wider social media platform like Beasts of War for example...
http://www.beastsofwar.com/liveblogentry/mech-attack-is-everything-an-old-school-gamer-could-want/
...then the pressure is even greater. 

[Ratman]

Having organised a few games on behalf of my club, I always try to do the best I can with the small budget that we have available. This budget is not always as large as some other clubs but we like to support shows where we can.
I have in the past been amazed at some of the games on display and also disappointed as I wander around shows. I like to try and put games on , participation or demo, that show what can be achieved if you're sort on time, money or both, and that you don't always have to throw money at a project or get divorced to produce a good game and have fun.

[lord marcus]

Hi Iain

I think you are right that demo standards have slipped over the last few years however we should be grateful that there are still folks prepared to do this - it clearly takes a great deal of effort (and risk) to put on a great display for what I understand is very little reward.

Perhaps the organisers/traders should 'pay/reward' for displays / demo games or at the very least vet those who plan to come along.

Personally the thought of taking all my shiny stuff to a show would fill me with dread.

EtS
 

just started reading this thread.

Some companies give rewards to their demonstrators. a couple years ago warlord was giving store credit to their online store, and mantic has apparently done the same.

one of my big "wants" in the hobby is to have the time needed to do a proper display board for my army. and then have a demo table themed and built up to the 9's.

[lord marcus]

You lost me here. It's quite sweeping to suggest an entire scale cannot be made to look great to even the most high of show standards. At Partizan this year there was a game near the Kallistra stand which was a huge 10mm Pellenor Fields display, which not only used 10mm figures but also Hex tiles! They were flocked, grassed etc though so also looked fantastic. It showed what can be done to make Kallistra's hex-based game rules/terrain system look fantastic. I wish I could find the pics I took of it. A show is surely all about displaying games of all types and scales and really showing how awesome they can look.

i would love to see pics of that.

I'm also against sweeping a scale under the bus. i play 6mm. just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean others do.

[Andym]

I am going to be working my butt off for the next six months getting a con game ready. I don't think it will be a work of art but it will be interesting. If it is not a high enough standard for some that is fine.

If they want to tell me it is not good enough and that I should do more to make them happy about being at the con they will be nuked back into the stone age.

.

 If it has 3D printed killer robots, I’m sure it’s going to be fine!

[ork56]

I guess it's all personal choice and that's what I'm asking about. These are opinions i have shared with a few in my hobby circle recently. Personally I wouldn't give a table with hex tiles 2nd glance at a show but i would happyily play on it at a club night.

Harsh!

I wasn't a fan of hex terrain, but as I saw more of it and began to understand the benefits of speed of play, LOS issues etc. It's not something I would use in my preferred gaming (Bolt Action) but I have a lot of Dust minis awaiting my attention and that game can be played on a grid - my board gaming buddy is more interested in thus option than trad free form terrain due to his perceived inability to assess ranges successfully.

To dismiss 10mm figures out if hand is an odd comment too; is 6mm OK? How about 15mm?
We chatted at the club this week about To the Stongest, where you need hundreds(?) of figures to fulfil the army requirements. At 28mm that's a lot of painting and real estate needed to play, whereas at smaller scales 'in my opinion' big battles look better with smaller minis.

I accept that some demo/display games vary in quality of presentation, but that's where you need to understand the definite difference between the two. Trusting your showcase minis to all comers fir a demo requires a great leap of faith and museum quality may actually put off incomers as they think they have to start at that high level?

TLDR; anyone who makes an effort to go to a show to either peacock around or bring new players in should be thanked for their efforts. Travelling and spending all day with a game is a big commitment.

[lord marcus]

Harsh!

I wasn't a fan of hex terrain, but as I saw more of it and began to understand the benefits of speed of play, LOS issues etc. It's not something I would use in my preferred gaming (Bolt Action) but I have a lot of Dust minis awaiting my attention and that game can be played on a grid - my board gaming buddy is more interested in thus option than trad free form terrain due to his perceived inability to assess ranges successfully.

To dismiss 10mm figures out if hand is an odd comment too; is 6mm OK? How about 15mm?
We chatted at the club this week about To the Stongest, where you need hundreds(?) of figures to fulfil the army requirements. At 28mm that's a lot of painting and real estate needed to play, whereas at smaller scales 'in my opinion' big battles look better with smaller minis.

I accept that some demo/display games vary in quality of presentation, but that's where you need to understand the definite difference between the two. Trusting your showcase minis to all comers fir a demo requires a great leap of faith and museum quality may actually put off incomers as they think they have to start at that high level?

TLDR; anyone who makes an effort to go to a show to either peacock around or bring new players in should be thanked for their efforts. Travelling and spending all day with a game is a big commitment.

Agreed on your last paragraph