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Author Topic: Agnadello 1509  (Read 4617 times)

Offline Ignatieff

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Agnadello 1509
« on: May 22, 2019, 10:34:39 PM »
Does anyone have any army lists for this battle?  Or at the very least for the Venetians?  I’d also appreciate any info on Venetian infantry - weaponry in particular. Thanks   Steve
"...and as always, we are dealing with strange forces far beyond our comprehension...."

All limitations are self imposed.  Work hard and dream big.

Offline Condottiere

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2019, 03:38:18 AM »
Does anyone have any army lists for this battle?  Or at the very least for the Venetians?  I’d also appreciate any info on Venetian infantry - weaponry in particular. Thanks   Steve

History & Uniforms #1– November 2015: Captured Ensigns at the Battle of Agnadello - 1509 by Massimo Predonzani https://www.amazon.com/History-Uniforms-GB-Bruno-Mugnai-ebook/dp/B0182FF3B0/ref=sr_1_28?qid=1558582501&refinements=p_27%3ABruno+Mugnai&s=digital-text&sr=1-28&text=Bruno+Mugnai

History & Uniforms #2– December 2015: The Battle of Agnadello – 14th May 1509 by Massimo Predonzani https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019CSRT90/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i3

You might be still be able to get issues of this sadly defunct e-magazine by contacting Bruno Mugnai https://www.facebook.com/pg/HistoryandUniforms/about/?ref=page_internal - it's how I purchased the Siege of Florence special - or the Amazon Kindle versions.







Offline Ignatieff

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2019, 11:33:44 AM »
Brilliant. Many thanks!

Offline Ignatieff

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2019, 11:35:44 AM »
Argh!  Neither are for sale on those links. Not even the kindle version. The search goes on....

Offline Leman

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 11:40:02 AM »
The information I have was originally put together as a scenario for DBR. The Venetians had a number of militia pike units, plus professional mercenary Romandiole pike units. They also fielded units of gendarmes, stradiots and skirmishing arquebusiers and crossbow.
If it’s too hard, I can’t do it

Offline Leman

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2019, 12:09:15 PM »
This information is from Peter Sides’ DBR scenario booklet, ‘Renaissance Battles’ volume one:

Gendarmes - one very large unit of 1500 plus a smaller unit of 200
Venetian pike - three units each of approx 3500 pike and 1500 crossbows
Romandiole pike - 3000
Italian skirmish infantry - armed with arquebus/crossbow 2000
Stradioti - 3000
Medium artillery - unfortunately only given as two models, so probably between 12 and 20 actual pieces

Offline Ignatieff

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2019, 12:59:13 PM »
Cheers Leman

Offline Condottiere

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2019, 04:16:10 PM »
Argh!  Neither are for sale on those links. Not even the kindle version. The search goes on....
He never responded? Might not have been via Facebook, since I'm not registered, but I do have the email address acquired from somewhere in 2017.

Offline Ignatieff

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2019, 04:55:03 PM »
and that link as dead....any help gratefully received, thanks!

Offline Friends of General Haig

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2019, 04:58:28 PM »
+1 for the DBR Scenario book - a great little resource!

Offline Ignatieff

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2019, 05:09:16 PM »
Got the mags. And yes will
Look at DBR

Offline Condottiere

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2019, 05:10:51 PM »
This information is from Peter Sides’ DBR scenario booklet, ‘Renaissance Battles’ volume one:

Gendarmes - one very large unit of 1500 plus a smaller unit of 200
Venetian pike - three units each of approx 3500 pike and 1500 crossbows
Romandiole pike - 3000
Italian skirmish infantry - armed with arquebus/crossbow 2000
Stradioti - 3000
Medium artillery - unfortunately only given as two models, so probably between 12 and 20 actual pieces

I've reservations about so many crossbows, as lists using Oman and Taylor as a resource, tend to generalize and penalize Italians with obsolescence - http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=177500. The Brisighelli of Romagna were in the first column and were marching away from the battle. The valiant resistance was by Venetian militia who happened to wear red and white stockings, derived from the Governor of Alviano's livery, and were mistaken for troops from Romagna.

Pages 14 and 15 from the History & Uniforms article:
Quote
The French victory at Agnadello marked the first and heaviest defeat for Venice. According to historians, the two armies were roughly equal in number but not in the quality of troops. Each side’s infantry numbered 20,000 men, but King Louis XII’s army included 7,500 veteran Swiss mercenaries. By contrast, the Venetians fielded 10,000 Italian mercenaries (provisionati) with 10,000 ordinanze or cernide, a peasant militia recruited in the Serenissima’s domains. Obviously, the militia was not uniformly disciplined or trained. The French cavalry numbered between 2,300 and 3,000 – the larger number appears in the transalpine sources. These were considered the best in Europe and outnumbered the 1,800 Venetian heavy horsemen. Venice’s light cavalry provided its only numerical advantage, with more than 4,000 horse archers and Dalmatian irregulars (stradiotti) against 3,000 French.

The Battle of Agnadello, also called Ghiaradadda, only involved part of the opposing armies. Each side marched in column towards the village of Pandino from different directions when the Venetian rearguard encountered the French vanguard near Agnadello. Because of the considerable distance between the head and end of the columns, every unit did not participate in the battle. Under the command of Niccolo Orsini, Count of Pitigliano, the Venetian army was divided into four formations or colonnelli. Only the third and fourth colonnelli were involved in the fighting. The chronicler Marin Sanudo accurately reports the Venetian army’s composition. Concerning the fourth colonnello, he states: “the men-atarms were 440, led by the governor Bartolomeo d'Alviano, second in command of the army, then there were 200 to 300 light horses and 7,000 foot soldiers”. These forces largely comprised of mercenaries and militiamen. Captain Pietro del Monte commanded 2,200 provisionati infantrymen.

At least one thousand of his troops were mercenary soldiers: 300 from Giacomo della Sassetta, 620 under Turchetto da Lodi, and another 300 from Pelegnino della Bandera, who took the place of the Albanian Colonel Mora. The brave Saccoccio da Spoleto commanded another corps of 1,720 mercenary soldiers. These included 570 men from his own company, 250 German mercenaries led by a certain Todeschino, and 900 infantrymen from Vicenza, probably militia, commanded by Giacomo da Ravenna. The cernide of Friuli and Padua provided another 3,000 militiamen, 1,500 from each region. A distinguished combatant at the Battle of Cadore, Girolamo Granchio of Mantua, led the militiamen from Friuli. A Greek, Captain Gregheto, led the Paduan Militiamen.



 

Offline Ignatieff

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2019, 07:03:22 PM »
Completely agree re the inaccuracy of the crossbow numbers.  I am currently reading Mallett and Hale's excellent "Military organisation of a Renaissance State, Venice 1400 to 1617' which provides direct evidence of the advanced state of handgun use in Venice's armies.  By 1509 crossbows were mainly used in sieges.  I might have one unit on the table for colour's sake, but the majority of missile infantry would be handgunners

Offline Leman

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2019, 07:15:17 PM »
Which demonstrates that if you post a bit of WRG simplification it will inspire those who really know to come out of the woodwork. Thanks chaps, as I have far more arquebusiers than crossbows. Now I have a question: the Furioso list shows Italian states only fielding skirmish crossbow and arquebus, whereas the much more complex lists in FoGR have some Italian states able to field both crossbow and arquebus as shot units; who is more likely to be correct? Personally I would like to be able to field both massed missile units and skirmishers in Italian armies. I also want to field spear and pavise troops which I’m sure were certainly fielded by Italian armies in the earlier part of the Italian Wars.

Offline Ignatieff

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Re: Agnadello 1509
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2019, 09:14:44 PM »
Oooh. Dunno. Haven’t got that far in the book yet!  lol lol lol. But thank you for the WRG stuff, still very useful.