Italian wars miniatures

[Wulko]

Hi!

I just bought the Landsknecht starter from Warlord and I'm thinking about getting the Perry european mercenaries as their swiss rivals. Would that be somewhat appropriate or are they way off historicaly?

[Charlie_]

They would be off by a few decades, but a lot of people seem to do it anyway.

The truth is that during the Italian wars landsknecht and Swiss fighting each other at any one time would look more or less identical, other than a few small details such as sidearms (they both made use of their own distinctive forms of short sword). The Swiss certainly wouldn't be wearing clothes and armour 30 or 40 years out of date. They were followers of fashion also!

Though of course that's not to say you shouldn't do it.

[Atheling]

Ditto the above. It's been very difficult to source miniatures that tie in for one another for both the Landsknechts (TAG) and for the Swiss ( Fornovo and Dornach), which I'm still stuck on 

[Thaddeu]

Ultimately it's just a question of priorities.

If I cared a bit more about historical accuracy, but still not enough to pay for metals, I'd build both the Swiss and Landsknechts from the Landsknecht box, being distinguished mostly by sidearms as Charlie_ says, but also perhaps with the poofier sleeves and beardier heads mostly going to the Landsknechts.

As it is, though, my Swiss are going to be something like a 20/80 mix of Warlord Landsknecht and Perry Mercenary bits, because variety is fun and kitbashing is my favorite hobby activity.

[jauntyharrison]

They would be off by a few decades, but a lot of people seem to do it anyway.

The truth is that during the Italian wars landsknecht and Swiss fighting each other at any one time would look more or less identical...

Would the same go for Spanish or Valois troops? I somewhere got the impression in my head that swiss and landsknecht mercenaries were at the avant-garde end of fashion, whereas other soldiers would have looked old fashioned by comparison. Would a Spanish arquebusier or rodelero have kept up with the fashion to have slash and puff stylings at pavia, for instance? Or would they still be wearing unembellished hose like in the perry mercenaries box?

[Charlie_]

Would the same go for Spanish or Valois troops? I somewhere got the impression in my head that swiss and landsknecht mercenaries were at the avant-garde end of fashion, whereas other soldiers would have looked old fashioned by comparison. Would a Spanish arquebusier or rodelero have kept up with the fashion to have slash and puff stylings at pavia, for instance? Or would they still be wearing unembellished hose like in the perry mercenaries box?

It's probably fair to assume that the Landsknechts (and perhaps the Swiss too?) would have the most 'out there' attire.

But fashion trends spread fast I suppose.

From a wargaming perspective it certainly would make sense to have them wearing the fancier clothes, and other nationalities in somewhat more subdued kit.

But personnally I wouldn't interpret this as everyone else wearing clothes and armour from several decades ago.

[Wulko]

Thanks for taking time to reply, really helpfull! I'll probably get the mercenaries and kitbash, because kitbashing is my drug.

[Metternich]

About the easiest way to differentiate between Swiss and Landsknecht costume is, that while both often wore a cross insignia somewhere on their bodies (sometimes a cloth applique,  sometimes just formed by slashes in the outer clothing), Landsknecht (as Imperialists) wore it in an X shape (Cross of Burgundy - one of the badges of the Hapsburgs), while Swiss Reiselaufer wore it in a + shape (like that on the modern Swiss flag).

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/84/97/828497667512d91a4a9158e4be695eee.jpg

[Atheling]

If I cared a bit more about historical accuracy, but still not enough to pay for metals, I'd build both the Swiss and Landsknechts from the Landsknecht box, being distinguished mostly by sidearms as Charlie_ says, but also perhaps with the poofier sleeves and beardier heads mostly going to the Landsknechts.

Does the Warlord Landsknecht box come with both Schweizerdegen and Katzbalger options? 

If so I'm in, just for the sword options!!

[Thaddeu]

Sorry to get your hopes up Atheling... while the daggers look (to inexpert me) to be Swiss, but you'd have to extend them to be proper short swords, which I may or may not have the energy to do.

Also, per Metternich, there is a Landsknecht body with X slashing on the chest that I will greenstuff into a + for any time I use it as Swiss. But I will not be correcting the + slashing on the poofy sleeve arms where I've used them for landsknechts.

[Atheling]

Sorry to get your hopes up Atheling... while the daggers look (to inexpert me) to be Swiss, but you'd have to extend them to be proper short swords, which I may or may not have the energy to do.

Also, per Metternich, there is a Landsknecht body with X slashing on the chest that I will greenstuff into a + for any time I use it as Swiss. But I will not be correcting the + slashing on the poofy sleeve arms where I've used them for landsknechts.

It was just a though mate. The slashing on the sleeves is OK but you're right about getting the green stuff out.

[Metternich]

Here is a link to an excellent article on the blog Camisado, which details for the wargamer the development of Landsknecht and Swiss clothing through the 16th century.

http://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2019/01/mid-16th-century-landsknecht.html

[Leman]

Artisan do produce some very nice specifically Swiss pike and arquebusiers for the Italian Wars. They also produce landsknechts and they do look different from one another, with the Swiss showing slightly less flamboyant slashing of sleeves and hose. Incidentally the Landsknechts from Warlord and mercenaries from Perry, together with their Swiss heads, mix and match well to produce a figure with a Swiss style head, slashed sleeves and tight hose, giving a different look to a true landsknecht. The problem with wars which go on for several decades is that fashions change. All the troops of the 1490s/1500s looked far less flamboyant to the troops of the 1520s. Consequently I like to push my armies up to the 1515 period and stop there.

[olicana]

My reply to this will not be helpful, probably.

You will not find what you want: Swiss, right period; Landsknehts right period; French right period. You must go with the Italian Wars flow - ciao baby!

Collect very late 15C, early 16C figures, then hold your nose and jump in.

I don't know of any manufacturer who will do everything you can have for the period (28mm is my bag) so don't even go there. You will have to be, to get what you want, somewhat eclectic.

My collection is from the most eclectic mix of figure manufacturers I wold think necessary, though I still keep adding.

Take a look at some pics of mine here:

http://olicanalad.blogspot.com/search/label/Italian%20Wars

[Leman]

I forgot to mention the Assault Group, whose Italian Wars range of figures are specifically designed for the earlier part of the Wars. For the Spanish go with the Neapolitan Spanish, many of whom are still wearing the skirted tunic. The Italians and Landsknechts are also fine for the period. If you go to the Renaissance section of their website the figures can be found under Italians, Spanish, Maximillian Imperial and Albanian. Unfortunately they took the strange decision to produce the French for the 1644 campaign.

Steel Fist Miniatures Gendarmes and lighter cavalry are ideal for the French, but there are no other specifically French troops as such.

An excellent source of information and inspiration is

http://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.co.uk/

which shows how to convert Perry figures to early Italian Wars - specifically English and French. He has also produced some metal dollies in the full skirted coat of the early C16th which will accept Perry arms and heads. These are also available through Steel Fist Miniatures.

Another very useful source of early Spanish pikemen is Old Glory. Many of these are wearing the skirted tunic, and some are depicted as turbaned Spanish moslems now incorporated into Ferdinand’s armies. They also have the advantage of hands to be drilled for accepting separate metal pikes, which then don’t fall off.