SAGA - Age of Hannibal

[Maniac]

Multi base figures can be handled easily by counting each base as one model.

I have often considered using our club’s Warmaster armies to play Saga.  Each 20x40 base is one warrior or levy or hearthguard.  It would make the game feel more like a large scale battle without any book keeping.

[Atheling]

OT, but probably worth suggesting- is there a possibility of setting up a Saga section on the forum as there is for certain other popular rules sets?

[pallard]

Hi Atheling
are you a Saga player? I have been considering it for years, in fact since the very beginning, after all it's a french set of rules. But I never went in because I always had better rules for the periods of my interest.
For this period I'll keep my distance for sure, the reason being that I own Clash of Spears and... well why try a Peugeot when you already have a Porsche?
Philippe

[Atheling]

Hi Atheling
are you a Saga player?

Yes and no. Yes I've played it a few years back at Vapnartak in York where my ex and Darren wiped the floor with me (I got Ulfhednared!) 

And no to playing it regularly. This might have been a different case if I hadn't taken a wargaming hiatus for four or five years as I bought all the original rules and dice etc (I still have them still kicking abou)t.

I have been considering it for years, in fact since the very beginning, after all it's a french set of rules. But I never went in because I always had better rules for the periods of my interest.
For this period I'll keep my distance for sure, the reason being that I own Clash of Spears and... well why try a Peugeot when you already have a Porsche?
Philippe

I would say this, anything that Alex Buchel writes rules wise is going to be good. He's extremely good at putting rule sets together. Alex (almost) solved the ineffectiveness/effectiveness of English Longbowmen at a WAB weekend using the lists he was writing up for the WAB HYW supplement just prior to when Warhammer Historical caved. He's not afraid of being inventive which is essential.

As far as Early Medieval/Dark Ages skirmish gaming goes I have mostly played Dux Britanniarum which is a completely different type of game.

I would certainly be up for playing but no one at our club plays as far as I know.

[madaxeman]

IMO Saga may look similar, but has a very different underlying aim and philosophy to other rulesets - I'd say that it's primarily "a game about historical warfare" rather than "a game that simulates historical warfare".

The mechanics are cute and innovative, the presentation is great, it pretty much re-set expectations away from everything having to be a mass-battle game in Ancient & Medieval wargaming, and it creates a great narrative story in each game - but the emphasis on often-spectacular "videogame style combos" in the engine can also mean it gets lopsided quite quickly if the two players have signficiantly different experience levels.

One for everyones shelf for sure - but suggesting its "better" or "worse" than other skirmish-scale sets is IMO arguably missing the point a little - "different" would probably be a better word to use.

[Atheling]

IMO Saga may look similar, but has a very different underlying aim and philosophy to other rulesets - I'd say that it's primarily "a game about historical warfare" rather than "a game that simulates historical warfare".

I'm not sure any kind of game can simulate warfare. Certainly, I know from experience that even the mix of excitement, confusion and finding the right the balance of aggression vs control in boxing (involving just two people) would be impossible to simulate.

One for everyones shelf for sure - but suggesting its "better" or "worse" than other skirmish-scale sets is IMO arguably missing the point a little - "different" would probably be a better word to use.

I'm not sure anyone was suggesting this(?). Certainly, I have nothing but  for respect for Alex's genius for rule writing. (He's an old chum too.)

[Bloggard]

I'm not sure any kind of game can simulate warfare. Certainly, I know from experience that even the mix of excitement, confusion and finding the right the balance of aggression vs control in boxing (involving just two people) would be impossible to simulate.

agree with you.

[AFC Forever]

Yeah, I think it would go pretty smoothly except the biggest issue with Saga, istm, is the basing. It works best with individually based figures or sabot bases. If you have 10 figures to a base, or similar then you'd need some sort of record keeping, which can sometimes get fiddly. Also spreading out to cover lots of ground, and/or fitting into small gaps, can sometimes be useful in Saga, so that might be an issue, too.

There is no reason you could not use multi based smaller figures if you wanted if the base sizes are roughly compatible. There are people doing 6mm SAGA as a big battle game

[monkeylite]

I'm not sure any kind of game can simulate warfare. Certainly, I know from experience that even the mix of excitement, confusion and finding the right the balance of aggression vs control in boxing (involving just two people) would be impossible to simulate.

Yeah, a bit off topic, I suppose, but I think there is a vague idea that wargames can simulate some of the decisions that a commander might have to make in a battle, whether it's just stuff like 'should we attack on the flank or pile up the middle?'. I don't think 'simulation' necessarily means having all the excitement and fog of war and weapons in your face.

[Maniac]

We play Saga about 3-4 times a year in my group, and it is no worse for simulation than other 'hard' rule games.  I think the mistake comes in playing it straight up tournament style.  The battleboards are far more 'narrative'.  By that I mean, the effects aren't really bad or wrong for a historical themed game, but they lend themselves best to scenario or objective based play.  It incorporates a fatigue management system, which is very good for a 'warfare' game and the Battleboards showcase a variant on the 'roll for # of commands' that may other games use for 'hardcore' systems.  It alters not only who activates, but how they activate, which gives a more dynamic feel than dryer 'hardcore' systems, and probably better reflects some of the variances that might have been present without a glossary of special rules to comb through.

Also, there is never really enough Saga dice to go around to really rack up the 'cheese' move.  There are a couple abilities which are potent (the original Anglo-Dane cancel a move ability could be rough, but it was only a one shot item, and the old Russian winter ones were a little bit difficult to handle, but otherwise there aren't many that are 'broken').  So far, I've found I like mixing the newer boards with the older rules.  The new rules lead to some less organic movements and plans, and I don't like watering down the warlord's contribution to the faction (less Saga dice now).  You might find yourself, in one game, saying 'that was a brutal combo'.  However, that is very situational and you are just as likely to rattle one off as well.  That said, we do play scenario games.  Often with a lot of looting/burning, search and destroy, or other similar objectives which could alter that perception.

Crescent and the Cross is my favorite of the rules.  It cleaned up some little niggling issues from the first edition, but otherwise seems the best all round.  Think of Saga as a mix of Epics/Sagas and history, and you will be right on the money.  It plays fast, does not require charts out the wazoo, but has some deeper strategy options with the Warlord abilities and the battleboards.  Age of Magic is another good, essentially agnostic, set that can be used for both Fantasy and 'history'.  See also Aetius and Arthur for good Fall of Rome action.

The biggest complaint from me would be the custom dice, which are stupid expensive.  We get around that by either converting battleboards over to D6 (and there are conversion charts out there) or make our own custom dice (for like 1/4 the price).  Of lesser concern is 2.0 took out some bits I really liked about v1.0 (although it did clean up fatigue in a way I like).

[pallard]

Yes I agree with the cost: it is normal to earn money for a good product, but doing profits with unnecessary items... Besides you have to run a business. And like you say, one can use normal dice.
The very interesting comments have pushed my Aetius and Arthur in the light once again. I'll give it a try seriously for sure.
Philippe

[SteveBurt]

Multi base figures can be handled easily by counting each base as one model.

I have often considered using our club’s Warmaster armies to play Saga.  Each 20x40 base is one warrior or levy or hearthguard.  It would make the game feel more like a large scale battle without any book keeping.

Multi base figure can be handled even easier by having enough single to make change. That’s what I do with all my 28mm ancients based for mass battle systems.

[SteveBurt]

We played through the battles of the 1066 campaign using Saga a few years ago. All as 2 v 2 games; great fun and not a bad recreation of history

[abu iskander]

Looks like it's up for pre-order:

https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/SRB25_SAGA_Age_of_Hannibal_PREORDER--product--6076.html

[aktr]

To the people asking about further Saga supplements for the period they have confirmed Saga: Age of Alexander and Saga: Age of Caesars