New project - Sudan.

[elcondottieri]

Hello guys.

I introduce myself, I am new to this forum, I have been playing with miniatures for several years, always focused on the Second World War.
I want to start a new project focused on Sudan (Mahdist War), especially in the area of Suakim.

I have four things quite clear about the project.
   Miniatures: 28mm
   Table size: 6'x3 ', 4'x3', 3'x3 ', all three sizes of my kitchen table.
   Maximum size of British forces:
      1st battalion 42nd regiment (The Black Watch) - approximately 720 men.
      1st Battalion 65th regiment (Y&L) - approximately 480 men.
      Royal Marine Light Infantry - approximately 480 men.
      Naval brigade - approximately 160 men.
      10th Hussars - approximately 300 men.
      They don't have to always appear all on the table, they are the maximum number of British forces I want to have.

   Size Ansar / Beja Forces: 1 Rub, approximately 2500 men, or more and more, I think there will never be enough madhists.

I need help with :

Miniatures, I have two perry plastic british boxes, birthday presents.

Rules, I only know TMWWBK, I don't have them, and I don't know if they are the correct rules for the maximum size of the battles I want to play.

I have looked for information on these rules and I know that a unit of regulars is made up of 12 miniatures.
Taking this into account and with a ratio of 1 miniature = 20 men.
   1st battalion 42nd regiment (The Black Watch) - approximately 720 men. 3 units of 12 miniatures each.
   1st Battalion 65th regiment (Y&L) - approximately 480 men. 2 units of 12 miniatures each.
   Royal Marine Light Infantry - approximately 480 men. 2 units of 12 miniatures each.
   Naval brigade - approximately 160 men. 1 unit of 8 miniatures.

It may be too many units for the size of my table.
I insist that I do not want all the units to always appear, perhaps in a final battle ..... 

What do you think?
I definitely need help with the rules.

Thank you very much. 

[Smokeyrone]

I like

[has.been]

With all those figures you might consider a less 'cluttered' system like Rebels & Patriots.
Have you got all the figures you need yet?
If not I have some Perry plastics, assembled but not painted, that I might sell on.

[elcondottieri]

I like

[elcondottieri]

Hi.
 I thought tmwwbk was specific to the colonial period and Rebelds and Patriots to earlier periods.

 I imagine that I would have to add house rules to be able to play the colonial period with it.
Has anyone tried to play sudan with this rules?

 I still have to buy the highlanders, with the two Perry boxes, I have the regular troops.
Ty.

[Diablo Jon]

TMWWBKs is really a skirmish game IMO 3 units of 12 regular infantry and a field gun is a 24 point field force. Don't get me wrong I really like TMWWBKs but it seems like you want to put a few more miniatures on the table, given that, maybe have a look at Black Powder from Warlord games they even have a Sudan supplement

https://store.warlordgames.com/collections/black-powder/products/digital-blood-on-the-nile-sudan-black-powder-supplement-pdf

[elcondottieri]

thanks for answering Diablo Jon.
 if the tmwwbk is only for skirmish we discard it.
 I'm going to look for information on black powder. 

I would like to be able to play battles with only part of the brigade but also to be able to play with the entire brigade.

Ty.

[has.been]

Rebels & Patriots is fairly generic. As sold it is for a lot of wars in America, from Alamo through
to ACW. People on LAF have used it for Indian Mutiny & I & Vodkafan plan (with a few tweeks)
to use it for Jacobite rebellion, so it can be easily tinkered with if you want to. Personally I
think you could use it 'As is'. Copies are cheap compared with many other rule sets, but in
the end you should find a set that works for you. Good luck on your endeavour & I hope to
see lots of pretty pictures here on LAF.

[TWD]

I don't consider TMWWBK to be a skirmish game - to my mind a genuine skirmish game is where 1 figure = 1 man.
TMWWBK is an abstracted game where the men are fielded as "units" of 12 models. A unit could be a company, a brigade or whatever other size you think - it's an abstraction.
I'm quite comfortable with that level of abstraction, you may not be.
It is quite small scale - as noted above a typical British force will only have 3- 4 units of regular infantry. But it does work for larger forces than that - I've seen games played with 36 point forces (six or so British units and 10 or so natives). TMWWBK will work just about at that size on your biggest specified table (3x6)

It's also quite "Hollywood" - it's not a detailed and accurate portrayal of Colonial gaming - it better recreates the derring do of the movies.

Black Powder is aimed at larger games - with many more models on the table. The units are typically twice the size - 24 models or more. The challenge you will face is that, as written, Black Powder really requires a larger table then you have available. An 8x4 is a realistic minimum size without reducing the movement ranges and even then it can feel very crowded.

Black Powder is also not at the "realistic" end of the spectrum - it's a "roll the dice and shout hurrah!" gaming experience.
I'm fine with that but others may not be.

I'd say that TMWWBK would work better on the table sizes you have available.
If you used the unit sizes suggested you'd have a British force of 40-50 points - double the recommended size so if you wanted to field them all at the same time then you might want to switch to BP. Though if you did I'd recommend reducing unit sizes, ranges and movement by either a third, or even 50% otherwise you'll soon run out of space on a table only 3' wide.

My blog has some example TMWWBK games - Afghanistan rather than Sudan but it'll give you a flavour:
http://tomstoysoldiers.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Men%20Who%20Would%20Be%20Kings

The Bleaseworld blog has some Sudan (and Afghan and Zulu) TMWWBK games. Including severa that use the 36 point forces that may fit better with the numbers of models you want to use:
http://bleaseworld.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Men%20Who%20Would%20Be%20Kings

[elcondottieri]

thanks TWD.

I'm still looking for the rules that allow me to play at my table.

  I've finally bought the TMWWBK and R&P rules.  In the first ones I have seen that there is an option to play with half-size units.
Have you tried playing with this option? What do you think of them?

A colleague has left me to read two more rules:
'The portable colonial wargame' (the grid is not a problem for me) and 'Up the Nile'  . the same questions as before.  Any opinion on them?

At the moment I am entertaining myself by painting some miniatures and testing them on bases in different ways.



Ty

[Diablo Jon]

All my Darkest Africa games of TMWWBKs are played with  the skirmish kings, half sized, units rule ( mostly becuase I don't have enough minis painted up) it seems to work just fine. Of course I'm gaming European explorers so small numbers don't seem out of place. For the Sudan, visually at least, I'd want the spectacle of the big units.

[Eric the Shed]

Great start with the painting.

Given the size of your table I think you are going to have to limit yourself to skirmish style games.

couple of reasons

In Black powder a unit can conceivably move 3ft in one turn (unless you reduce ranges etc by 33%/50%). I play on a 6ft x 12ft table and we reduce the ranges /movement rules by 33%.

The frontages of units should be relatively straight forward, provided you and your opponents are consistent. Typical unit size for British troops would be around 20 to 24 figures on a frontage of 20-24cm. Your six foot wide table would only allow around 7-8 units across its width and give littler room for maneuver. The alternative option is to reduce the footprint of your units or reduce the scale,

In terms of TMWWBK and Black Powder comparisons in the Sudan I have posted about this on my blog herehttp://shedwars.blogspot.com/2018/07/ambush-on-nile.html

best of luck it is a great period

[Atheling]

I would consider buying a copy of Kervin Calder's Up the Nile Rules from Partizan Press/Caliver Books.

The rules concentrate mainly on the friction and attrition of battle so there is minimal; casualty removal.

The rules were written in a manner where using different base sizes makes very little difference in gameplay.

Well worth checking out. Lots of lovely full glossy pics on all the parties to boot 

[elcondottieri]

I would consider buying a copy of Kervin Calder's Up the Nile Rules from Partizan Press/Caliver Books.

The rules concentrate mainly on the friction and attrition of battle so there is minimal; casualty removal.

The rules were written in a manner where using different base sizes makes very little difference in gameplay.

Well worth checking out. Lots of lovely full glossy pics on all the parties to boot 

Thanks Atheling .
I have the rules, this afternoon after work I start reading them.



Ty