Dwarven Forge Terrain

[Grumpy Gnome]

Dwarves Forge terrain, by reputation very expensive RPG Terrain not really suited to tabletop wargaming. Or is it?

During their Wildlands Kickstarter DF started talking about making more wargamer friendly scatter terrain. The price is still high compared to other more traditional terrain.

But the more Dwarven Forge terrain my wife and I get, the more confident I feel about it in relation to wargaming. Admittedly you need to like the quirky, characterful aesthetic which is not going to be for everyone. However, if you do, the robust and modular nature makes it brilliant for endless replayability, ease of storage and multi-genre settings.

I go into much more depth on this blog entry...

https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/2021/02/25/dwarven-forged/

But I would enjoy reading what other folks think here.

And since many of us here are painters/modelers, how many who use Dwarven Forge prefer to modify Dwarven Forge rather than use it as it comes outbox the box so to speak.

[dwbullock]

I always wanted some, and took the dive on their first kickstarter.  It was great.  Then, it wasn't.

Setup takes forever with their stuff.  And then you always seem to be missing those one or two pieces you desperately need to finish your design (or my designs were simply too grand for my pocketbook).  And it never failed, someone would always bump it and all the pieces would shift.  I've heard people have come with with magnet solutions, but never had any luck with that option personally.

Then it went into the box.  On a shelf.  Where it sat.  For a very long time, because every time I would get it out, setup would take much longer than hoped.  Finally sold it all off.

In short, great terrain.  Definitely a 'new hotness' when you first get it.  After setting it up a few times, it gets old pretty quickly.

[Elbows]

Just a quick summation of my thoughts:

-The older resin stuff was far nicer in quality of design, and paintwork, but is heavy and you're always risking chipping it if you somehow dropped it, etc.
-The new plastic stuff is nice, but the pre-painted options are far worse than the old resin stuff...I would never pay for the newer stuff painted.
-The first Kickstarter for the plastic stuff was worthwhile...and then the value per dollar has plummeted since, with each Kickstarter being more bespoke and more expensive.
-I can only recommend a handful of the plastic sets being worth the money since the prices are simply absurd for some of what you get.
-I don't have a problem with the stuff shifting but I simply use black felt and the pieces are weighty enough that I have never had a catastrophic shift.
-It can be time consuming to set-up, and it's not a super portable thing if you want to run a full dungeon somewhere other than your house.
-I suggest having your pieces sorted nicely and eventually you'll become quicker at setting it up.
-Painting the new plastic DF stuff is easy.  You don't need to prime it, and Vallejo paints have worked fine with no tack or flaking/falling off.  Of course DF insists that only their paints that they sell are properly "formulated" to work on the plastic and that's bullshit.  Try what you own first.
-I've found that some of the newer plastic stuff I've received is actually worse than the older plastic stuff I own.
-The plastic stuff is robust enough that it should last...forever, which is a plus I suppose.
-For some incredibly STUPID reason, certain sets from DF are 1" squares and others are 25mm or something...meaning certain KS sets do not perfectly match with other sets.  This is absolutely stupid as hell.
-I played with some of the city building pieces at a convention and...NOPE.  A dozen pieces just to built a tiny 4-6 square hut?  No thanks.  I vastly prefer the old tavern sets I own, which blend straight in with the other dungeon pieces.  They really missed out on making a decent tavern set...something I don't understand.

In short, it's nice stuff if you put some effort in and play a lot of dungeon crawling games.  Even with my large collection I can barely justify the cost of most of the Dwarven Forge sets - and that's unpainted, not even considering the obscene prices of the painted stuff.  The majority of my DF stuff is old resin or from the first Kickstarter - with only a handful of sets following it.  Basically I like the products I own, but do not respect the company's move toward more and more expensive stuff.

I'm very happy to see other companies like WarLock, etc. coming out with stuff to challenge them.  I hope more companies get into the game and push the competition.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Some fair observations.

I suspect we are going to be frustrated with the same one or two missing pieces issues in the future, me more than my wife. She is more flexible with jury rigged solutions than me.

One of the changes I have tried to address in my blog post is the magnets and metal layer terrain trays. Quite the quality of life improvement.

The other is the nature of Dwarven Forge going beyond just underground dungeon delving terrain. The water options with negative space use and their new transparent water surface material are interesting, especially if you are like my wife and want an alternative to resin water that still scratches the same itch.

Keeping the pieces organized is going to be a challenge. Easy jumble thrown storage in RUB‘s versus more organized systems that take up more space. Time spent on take down versus spent on set up.

Many people complain about the prices increasing over time but from what I can see comparing older pieces to new, the factory painting quality has diminished but the sculpting has gotten much more detailed and complicated. It is better in that respect although admittedly therefore not as generically multi-purpose.

More competition is a good thing. I am very familiar with the Warlock pieces from Wizkids but I do like Archon Studios Dungeons and Lasers, which as I mentioned in my blog entry we will be using for our dungeons instead of Dwarven Forge.

I was originally not a big fan of the castle and city lines but I am coming around to them, they are a bit fiddly but the ability to make different layouts rather than having to use the exact same castle or building has an appeal. The city buildings definitely lack the charm of our Tabletop World buildings. So if we end up with any city pieces they will only supplement our buildings rather than replace them.

The next DF Kickstarter is planned to focus on expanding their city line from what I have read and seen on twitch.

As I mentioned in my blog, Dwarvenite the rubbery plastic they use, reminds me of the material Schleich uses for their models. I wonder how much the material affects the cost? I very much appreciate the durability over resin and plaster.

[robh]

Although I love 3D scenery for Dungeon gaming the DF stuff was always way overpriced for what it was/is. Also I think that Stefan (as evidenced by his comments on rival KS campaigns a few years ago) is a complete w*&%$r so am considerably biased anyway.

The key thing when setting up games with 3D dungeons is match game layouts to your collection of rooms and corridors, you cannot ever hope to match your collection to the game layouts.*
You would need a limitless supply of wall and corridor curves and angles to complete even a fraction of the floorplan layouts in game modules. I did see a comment a while back where a US gamer worked out the DF cost of enough pieces to replicate each of the Rappan Athuk megadungeon levels to be more than he paid for his detached house.

* Although that said I have paid up for more than 2 full sets of the Archon D&L plastic scenics to replicate the Hybrid & Nemesis floor plans in 3D. 

[Elbows]

Therein lies one of the issues too...pricing inconsistency.

The basic starter set which is $75 unpainted is a completely reasonable amount of stuff for your money. Enough for a large room, a couple small ones, a couple doors etc.

Many smaller sets from later KS can be upwards of $200...for less playable space, etc.  They went whole-hog on bespoke small pieces which are inherently less-useful.  When someone asks if I recommend DF...I generally just say "the basic sets, yes" but I cannot in good conscience recommend most of the more elaborate stuff.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Robh, I do not suppose you have a link available for those comments? I would like to read them for myself before judging him on them.

Elbows, when you say pricing inconsistency are you suggesting the pricing is somehow unfair? Some sort of price gouging? Is there a product from a competitor that is comparable type and quality that is cheaper?

Much of the replies in this thread have focused on the dungeons, whereas our interest is the really focused on the castles, forests and caverns. We are undecided on the buildings... but the general dungeon stuff is not really our thing.

[Golgotha]

Any chance of a close up photo of those trees on the top right hand corner of your first pic or a link? Nice set up by the way especially the nifty dungeon.

[Grumpy Gnome]

No problem mate.

A link to the trees...

https://shop.dwarvenforge.com/products/6-a143-p_tree-variety-pack-painted?variant=31988872282215

And some photos attached. My wife was experimenting with how the pieces might work together, including her Citadel trees.

[robh]

Robh, I do not suppose you have a link available for those comments? I would like to read them for myself before judging him on them.

No. They were on other 3d dungeon sets that were active at the same time as the first or second? DF campaign. One was the Iter's  Workshop campaign which I backed heavily (sadly it ended up with some delivery problems for a few of the backers but not me). This was a Hirst Arts licensed resin product, the other was a different modular set run by a girl in the US. This was also resin but a nicely pre-painted, unique (not DF or Hirst based) design. I don't recall who she was as I did not back it.
The crux of Stefans comments in the "rival" campaigns comments sections was that as his stuff was patently superior anyone else trying to make dungeon scenics should ensure that their work was compatible with his.  Incredible arrogance from a thoroughly dislikeable individual.

[Elbows]

Rick,

There are, fortunately more companies coming out to compete with Dwarven Forge.  While DF stuff is pretty nice, there's nothing particularly superior about it.  It's a relative cheap but robust plastic.  There are a lot of DF sets that are priced at an eye-watering level...mostly packed with small gimmick pieces that don't net you much dungeon.  Some of the unpainted "room" sets go for upwards of $250-300...for less about a square foot of playing room.  That's pretty insane.

So I cannot tell anyone who is not of significant means "yeah you should totally buy a $300 room for your dungeon".  Whereas I feel comfortable suggesting the $74 starter rooms.  You may miss some of the trinkets and "fancier" bits...but you get more dungeon.

I think Dwarven Forge would be worthwhile if you could buy it from retailers - and thus occasionally get 10-15% off or some free shipping, etc...but that's not how they operate.

Out of the entire DF catalogue, I find maybe 20% that seem acceptable for how much stuff you get for the money.  The big deluxe door set is pretty decent at $19 for two large doors (with four interchangeable sets of actual doors for each frame, etc.).

I believe Dwarven Forge is not interested in sales to lower-funded gamers, teenagers, etc.  I think they know that D&D is a pop-culture thing now, and that IT business professionals in their 40's-50's are willing to dump $2000+ on a dungeon set-up without batting an eye, etc.  You can see it on the Kickstarters, where they frequently sell the "all-in" pledges at multiple thousands of dollars.  So I hope that stuff like the Archon plastics, the new Wizkids WarLock (which does appear to be a better bang for the buck so far- and is a retail product meaning you can get it on sale - and everywhere) will push Dwarven Forge to reconsider their pricing structure.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Robh... I am going through the comments on Itar’s Kickstarter now, but it is taking awhile given there are 1976 comments. It has been interesting to see some familiar names.

Is the other ks you mention Mythical Lairs? I see you mentioned Mythical and DF in one of your comments on Itar’s.

I found this...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1473667415/mythical-lairs-the-next-step-in-dungeon-terrain/comments

Stefan Pokorny, Zaltar of Valoria
vor mehr als 7 Jahren
Congratulations on being funded....yes, I am the CEO of Dwarven Forge, but I am also a Gamer, and one who cares about other Gamers, so for the good of everyone I beseech you to try to make your pieces as compatible to Dwarven Forge Game Tiles as possible...the last thing anyone wants is a VHS vs Beta war which only causes problems for everyone...along those lines I call on you to create the 3" to 2" conversion passage to help make things compatible between us:)

To which she replied...

Kimberly JohnsonProjektgründer
vor mehr als 7 Jahren
Wow, ok so the new items have finally been added (had to fight with the KS interface a bit)! They'll be added to the Mythical Lairs website shortly.

Stefan, welcome and thanks for the comments! I agree in that the more compatible the different pieces are, the better it works out for gamers - and that's the whole point. It may take a couple of days but I should be able to come up with a simple conversion piece to facilitate better compatibility.

Thanks!

Kimi

Everyone has to judge for themselves but my wife and I do not think Stefan was out of order in what he posted, or how he said it. While we can not tell how much he pledged, wouldn’t have had to back the project in order to post?

I will keep looking for Stefan’s comments on Itar’s Kickstarter.

[Grumpy Gnome]

While not fun, I managed to finally get through all the comments on that Itar’s Workshop Kickstarter. I did not find anything from Stefan, nor comments directed to him if he was one of the people who has their name removed when they pulled their pledge money.

Instead the issue looked to be a person named Jack, but I can not read comments from Jack, I suppose because they pulled their pledge. I can see some unhappy attitudes on display in the various comments.

Robh, you mentioned DF having “ripoff” international postage rates whereas Itar’s only charged 20 dollars. I am curious, were you ever charged VAT on that Kickstarter?

I have been wondering how Tabletop Troubadour with their Hagglethorn Hollow Kickstarter has such a low delivery cost compared to Dwarven Forge Wildlands given the weight/size should be similar for our pledges. Now I am beginning to wonder about how VAT is/has been/will be applied.

All that said... I am not finding comments to make me think less of Stefan of Dwarven Forge.

+++++++++++

Elbows,

There are, and have been, many companies competing with DF. Reading the Kickstarter comment threads that Robh referenced help me better understand that. It is not as if competition is new.

And we backed D&L over getting DF dungeon pieces, with cost being part of the decision making... although the aesthetics of the Dwarven and Mine sets were also a key part. Not as practical I suppose as more generic stone dungeon pieces but those are the sets I liked most. We still ended up ordering more of the older, conventional D&L dungeon sets due to bang for buck consideration. The whole KS is great bang for buck given the dragons and accessories.

But having played around with D&L pieces following that Kickstarter thanks to a lucky eBay auction win.. they are not really equivalent to DF. They are great, and I look forward to getting our pledge, but the material just is not comparable. It will do the job but I think DF Dwarvenite has its advantages over the D&L plastic. That said, we will happily use both given our current plans.

I do not expect everyone to agree but my wife and I do find Dwarvenite to be superior to the cardstock, plaster, resin, MDF and plastic pieces we have experienced from other companies. It is not perfect. We have been trying to address mould line issues on the DF forum for example.

It would also seem to me that the less expensive unpainted starter dungeon pieces is aimed at the beginner market, no matter the age, and their more expensive pieces aimed at more experienced customers.

The question is no whether it is expensive or not... the question is, is overpriced. If the manufacturing process is expensive, the sculpting, casting, painting and marketing... obviously the product is going to be expensive if the company is going to stay in business.

Considering the difficulties we have experienced so far with the Hagglethorn Hollow Kickstarter it was very interesting to see the two kickstarters Robh mentioned having failed to completely deliver and unless I am mistaken subsequently bring about the end of their companies.

My wife and I like a lot of DF products but we are not blindly loyal fans. Just as I am outspoken on this forum, I have been outspoken on the DF forum. Pointing out what we think is good as well as bad.

When I mention DF on this forum, this thread is not the first time I have mentioned it, I am surprised by the negativity around it. So I want to understand... hence the work Input into researching what Robh said.

When you say you can not recommend, I am not sure you realize that it can come across as you discourage. Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But I want to be clear, people have previously discouraged me from DF and I was pleasantly surprised when I got the stuff in hand.

So far DF customer service has been good with us. So far I have not seen DF staff, Stefan or others, behave inappropriately. I have found no evidence of price gouging.

But I am very open minded if anyone has evidence to put forward. I love transparency in business. And since we do not have unlimited funds we like to be choosy in how we spend our money.

[Bloggard]

a chum of mine likes their stuff - not sure how much he has, think he backed a KS or two; lives in the UK.

from the perspective of an impecunious fellow (i.e. me), certainly too expensive for 'what you get', relatively speaking. But lovely stuff if you can afford it (and store it), and that's fair enough.

your set-up as in the photos above RW, is fantastic - I love that look - and your wife's citadel trees fit in very well.

[robh]

Is the other ks you mention Mythical Lairs? I see you mentioned Mythical and DF in one of your comments on Itar’s.

Sounds familiar yes. I didn't back it so don't know what became of the project or the range since then.  Hopefully she was able to make a go of it, the pieces looked good.
The ending of the Itar's Workshop KS was very sad. I was lucky in my choice of the brown resin; it was not a popular colour choice and with far less sets required he used the brown production runs to "test" his processes and the moulding and casting equipment he bought. So they were all completed early and the pledges sent out.  Sadly towards the end of the fulfilment his wife became seriously ill and his own mental health suffered severely.
Shame for the backers who were left without full pledges at the end and for him. He was a really nice guy who didn't deserve all the shit he faced. The dungeon scenery he produced is excellent and I have used my set a lot. The range was purchased by one of the KS backers IIRC but it has never come back into production, if it did I would love to pick up some more of it.

The box I received was 20+ kilos (best packed and wrapped KS fulfilment I have had) and had no surcharges, I paid only the pledge cost and the flat rate shipping. Although I don't recall how much it was exactly I do remember he was out of pocket by a few $$ on shipping my pledge. It went out at "cost", maybe $5 or $6 more than he charged. I think the stretch goal doors and pillars etc he included got a bit out of hand, but otherwise his estimate of actual shipping was spot on.
Hagglethorn is being shipped at cost from China (via the hubs) and is apparently DDP so I am not expecting to pay extra to get my pledge here in Spain. There was a worry about shipping EU packets from UK as the delays in fulfilment dragged it from pre to post Brexit but the switch to distribution from Germany has apparently resolved that.  But honestly, communication from TTG on that project has been abysmal and at best economical with the truth so who really knows.
I am still waiting to hear about the 2nd Archon D&L fulfilment as I got incorrectly hit with hefty import & handling charges on the first one. To their credit Archon immediately refunded me the extra charges.

Regarding DF; I feel that this is a small hobby and there are good, decent people in it who deserve to be supported and there are some who are not and don't. DF are one of the companies I choose not to deal with.
YMMV.