Ronin - Best Two Starting Buntais?

[Mr. White]

I've got Ronin on order and want two Buntais so I can run two player games to start with. I'm leaning towards the Sohei Monks and the Bandits at the moment because I like the look of the models and think they'd be fun to paint. For those with Ronin experience, would these two put on a good game?

[Panaldi]

Not entirely sure that’s the best pairing. Ronin Buntai are not perfectly balanced, and while the Sohei are rather top of the food chain, the bandits are... not...

In our experience Bushi or Ikko Ikki could be better sparring partners for the monks. As a caveat, we played Bushi, Sohei, Bandits and Ikko until now.

[nandrin]

The most important thing when deciding for a Buntai should be "do I like the look?". If these are the two most appealing factions for you, then go for it. It makes no sense playing with miniatures you don´t like. And I agree they look great!

Last week I played a RONIN match with Bandits vs. Samurai and the bandits won. But I admit they are kind of a challenge to play whereas Sohei are pretty much a no-brainer to field. It depends heavily on the scenario how good or bad a buntai will perform, but I think you will have fun with all factions.
I agree that the various buntai are not balanced perfectly because this is a story driven system and not really suitable for tournaments. From out of the rules the author himself considers Bushi, Sohei and Koryu the strongest factions - but others are more fun to play with! 

[Maniac]

I would disagree on the Koryu.  Perhaps vs factions other than Bushi, but versus Bushi their lack of armor struggles to hold the line.

Bushi and Sohei are top of the food chain, for sure.  Bandits do well in scenarios where they can speed bump the opposing forces.  Their generally higher model count can really slow things down, but they are going to die.

We have not tried the pirates or the Koreans yet though, so no opinion on those forces.

Sohei do well due to a combination of medium armor, fearlessness, and naginatas across the board.

Bushi do well due to medium/Heavy armor and plentiful commanders.

A rank 3+ in either faction is going to be brutal for weaker foes as they can divert more impetus into attacks or enhanced attacks.  Their generally decent stats plus armor, coupled with kenjutsu or similar can enable them to last for quite a while.

[Mr. White]

Are Bandits simply never competitive against the monks  or do they need lots of numbers to be a challenge?

[craigjwoodfield]

Numbers help a lot. I enjoy playing Bandits the most. 

As has been noted, they weren't all created equal, and that was somewhat deliberate.

[Metternich]

In 200 pts games my son and I allow the bandits to take a single Senior Ronin (in addition to the Bandit Leader in heavy armor) if the Sohei have either an Abbot or a Senior Sohei.  That single Rank 4 figure helps even up the odds with the Sohei.  Also, make sure you use the Osprey Errata for Ronin, makes Tetsubo a little more even against the Naginata and clarifies that the Bandits can take up to 25% of their figures as armed with Teppo (not the 10% listed in Ronin).  That said, in our first game of Ronin the Bandits won (the teppo can bring down even a Senior Sohei !).
 Even with the Errata, the Nodachi is still somewhat short-changed against both the Naginata (the super-weapon of the Ronin rules) and Tetsubo.  There are two potential fixes:  En Garde (essentially Ronin 2.0) increases the points value for halberd (naginata equivalent) to an extra point as compared against both the great sword (nodachi equivalent), great weapon (tetsubo equivalent) or spear (yari) (in Ronin they are all 3 points; in En Garde the halberd costs 3 points and these others two).  The second, is use of a House Rule (we allow the Nodachi, if fighting against two figures, to make a second attack against another figure if the nodachi wielder causes a wound on the first figure).  In addition, highly recommend using the En Garde rule for weapons jitsu (Weapons Master, in En Garde) to allow a re-roll of one attack/defence die if the initial roll was a 1 or 2 (not if it is a 1 - 5, which Ronin would allow).   For Bandits, highly recommend that you make one of the Gashira a teppo user, and give him the jitsu to be expert in it (giving him a shoot of 2, and the re-roll ability if he "misses').

[Bowman]

........Bushi do well due to medium/Heavy armor and plentiful commanders.

A rank 3+ in either faction is going to be brutal for weaker foes as they can divert more impetus into attacks or enhanced attacks.  Their generally decent stats plus armor, coupled with kenjutsu or similar can enable them to last for quite a while.

Yep, and that’s what the Teppo are for!

I find also numbers are a force. As Uncle Joe said, “Quantity is a quality all of its own”. My friend made a Chinese Peasant list and they are tough to deal with. The rabble protect the high level Ming soldiers from the guns, and suicidal rabble ganging up on Samurai eventually kill them by a thousand cuts. Not a legit Buntai but as balanced as the others (which is to say somewhat not balanced).

Like most war games, Scenario design is key and having sufficient terrain to thwart missile troops is also important.

And thanks for the interesting house rules. I also like the En Garde mechanisms.

It’s a great game. My favourite Buntai is Koryu. I have never won a game with them but they all go down swinging in a blaze of cinematic glory.

[Metternich]

In a 200 point game we usually include 3 peasants with improvised weapons within the Bandit Buntai - as you noted, "quantity has a quality all its own."  The peasants make good speed bumps, and with them ganging up on a singel Sohei you can try to finish off a rank 3 or 4 figure by using a rank  3 or above (and the peasants can contribute a die to the higher rank's attack or defense).  I couldn't see the peasants managing to bring down a rank 3 or 4 on their own; typically if we try that the rank 3 Sohei or rank 4 Sohei kills two of them.   Generally, isn't worth the points to give peasants a yari (unless you have a peasant Buntai, I suppose !).  The yari costs as much as the peasant (and you can probably find better uses for the 3 points per peasant so equipped). 
   

[Pijlie]

Koryu are a problem because they do not have armour and IIRC no ranged weapons. Most other factions are reasnably matched but vary wildly in playing style or (in case of peasants) number of figures.

[Maniac]

The Teppo can indeed be an equalizer, but it is slow (needing a reload) and less accurate.  Conversely the yumi will struggle against anyone with armor which reduces the potency of it's fire rate.

[Metternich]

The Teppo is indeed slow (the need to reload) but both the Northstar Bandit and Sohei buntais each get two of them.  If you go by the Northstar "recommended" makeup of the two buntais, it is the Sohei Initiates who get the Teppo (shoot of 1), while in the Bandit buntai a Gashira (essentially a sergeant) gets a Teppo (and has a shoot of 2; and give him the Attribute and the jitsu to use it well).  We found that if you leave the Teppo loaded and maneuver in relatively close to your target figure (say up to 6 inches) and then sit still, you can get in a devastating shot against a well-armored figure (like the Senior Sohei).  In fact, the Bandit Gashira can probably fire into a melee at up to 6" and hit his intended target (and that really changes the dynamic when that well-armored figure takes a musket ball).  An alternative is to use the Teppo as a sniper weapon, starting out with an early long-range shot (which just might hit) from cover, and giving your "arquebusier" (teppoeer ??) time to reload while everyone else is moving forward (and closing the range).  As for the archers, odds are that you won't do much against well-armored figures, but they can be devastating against  men in light armor or no armor (especially given the higher rate of fire than the Teppo)  Metternich and I have played Bandits against Sohei several times, and the Bandits win about as often.  Another thing to remember is that Bandits get extra victory points for looting bodies of slain enemies of rank 3 or above (the way Bushi get extra victory points for taking heads) - Sohei don't have an equivalent way to accumulate additional victory points.       

[Mr. White]

Finally ordering some Ronin minis, so I need this thread to rise from its grave...

What about Koryu v Bandits? Is that a good game? I see there's a little campaign put together by the author for these two.

[manic _miner]

 I just got the Bandit box last Week.Really nice figures.

 Need to get the rules next.

[Khusru2]

I game solo with 4 small competing bandit forces in a mini campaign with similar numbers for monks and law and order, mainly ashigaru. Also, plenty of villagers including women & children. The majority are Dixon with some Perry villagers thrown in.
None have teppo. Yumi only out of choice.
It depends on the type of game you wish to play and scenarios used.