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Author Topic: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?  (Read 4370 times)

Offline vtsaogames

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Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« on: 10 August 2021, 08:02:39 PM »
During the American Civil War, Abe Lincoln sacked a number of Union generals. And they usually stayed sacked. McDowell never got a major independent command again, Pope was sent off to chase the Sioux, Burnside and Hooker both got lesser commands and McClellan turned to the political arena after being relieved the second time – with the same lack of success.

But Jefferson Davis had to go back to the same well over and over. Of the first crop of full Confederate generals, only Lee was a success and got along with Davis. Albert Sidney Johnston died early at Shiloh and was not in the running afterwards. Beauregard wasn't bad – when he wasn’t feuding with and plotting against Davis. Joe Johnston was nearly as cautious as Little Mac; specializing in retreats and excuses – when he wasn’t feuding with and plotting against Davis. Then there is Braxton Bragg, a good planner and trainer who became indecisive in the face of the enemy, who feuded with his subordinate generals incessantly and lacked the common touch. Routed at Chattanooga, he finally resigned. His buddy Davis soon brought him back as virtual chief of staff. From this position he was able to continue his feud with his old subordinates and continue his baleful influence on the star-crossed Army of Tennessee. When Bragg’s generals had twice before agitated to have Bragg removed, one of the reasons Davis sustained him was he wasn’t fond of the other choices – Beauregard or Joe Johnston.

Only two others were later promoted to full general. Kirby-Smith was a good brigade commander who was promoted way above his level of competence. He became the telegraph-bound administrator of the trans-Mississippi. The other was John Bell Hood, a brilliant brigadier, a fine division commander, an average corps commander and one unfortunate army commander. Enraged by his subordinates in the Army of Tennessee (see a pattern here?), he sent Pat Cleburne and thousands of others to their deaths at Franklin.  He then hung on outside Nashville long enough for George Thomas to come out and shatter his rump of an army.
 
When a full Confederate general was unsuccessful, he remained in the small stable of available army commanders, all but the martyr Albert Sidney. Was Davis incapable of firing someone or did the Confederate Constitution tie his hands?
« Last Edit: 11 August 2021, 02:06:08 PM by vtsaogames »
And the glorious general led the advance
With a glorious swish of his sword and his lance
And a glorious clank of his tin-plated pants. - Dr. Seuss


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Offline has.been

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #1 on: 11 August 2021, 10:30:56 AM »
Quote
Confederate Constitution tie his hands?

Not just his hands. Right to the very end, when Lee's army of
Northern Virginia were in rags there were warehouses full
of new uniforms, but they belonged to a different state.
If you go to war to defend 'States' rights it is difficult to
tell them what to do.
The ancient Greeks knew that in times of great troubles
you have to suspend Democracy & they would bring in
a Tyrant. Their trouble was often getting rid of the Tyrant
when the problem had gone, or was going.
Churchill, fighting for freedom, said, 'Truth is so important
that it needs to be guarded by a bodyguard of lies'.
Someone else said of the Confederacy, 'Too small for
a Country. Too large for a Lunatic Asylum'

Davis also was a bit of a meddler who thought he knew
what the Military should do. Lincoln just kept removing
those that weren't successful until he got ones that worked. 

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #2 on: 11 August 2021, 11:48:16 AM »
...If you go to war to defend 'States' rights it is difficult to
tell them what to do...

Now that you mention it, I recall Georgia's Governor Joe Brown repeatedly threatened to secede from the Confederacy, right up until Sherman made the point moot.
The two major differences between the USA and CSA constitution: the latter spelled out the right to own slaves and the right to secede.

Offline Baron von Wreckedoften

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #3 on: 11 August 2021, 05:41:45 PM »
'Too small for a Country. Too large for a Lunatic Asylum'

Priceless.  Absolutely priceless.
No plan survives first contact with the dice.

Offline Inkpaduta

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #4 on: 11 August 2021, 06:28:19 PM »
The Lost Cause likes to state that all the Confederate generals were great and far better than their Union counterparts.
However, Davis really didn't have a lot of options. Most of the top generals had serious flaws. Even Longstreet, an excellent
corps commander failed when he had an independent command. You work with what you got.

Offline Mammoth miniatures

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #5 on: 11 August 2021, 09:53:19 PM »
I'd wager the more competent and level headed commanders realized early on that the confederacy was doomed to failure and simply kept their heads down.

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #6 on: 12 August 2021, 03:25:32 AM »
...Someone else said of the Confederacy, 'Too small for
a Country. Too large for a Lunatic Asylum'...

While that's a fabulous quote, when the war started various military pundits thought the South would win because it was too large to be easily conquered. What they didn't consider was how steam engines in trains and ships would shrink the distances, allowing large forces to be supplied much further from their bases than previously. One thing the Union got down fairly early was keeping their forces stocked with beans and bullets. Getting the sharp end in better shape took longer.

Offline has.been

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #7 on: 12 August 2021, 09:45:08 AM »
Quote
While that's a fabulous quote, when the war started various military pundits thought the South would win because it was too large to be easily conquered. What they didn't consider was how steam engines in trains and ships would shrink the distances, allowing large forces to be supplied much further from their bases than previously. One thing the Union got down fairly early was keeping their forces stocked with beans and bullets. Getting the sharp end in better shape took longer.

The best aim for the South was not to win, just to stay in existence
until the North tired of the war. They also, erroneously, assumed
that Britain (then still a Super Power) would have to come to their
aid because of the need for cotton. It is a fascinating 'What if?'
that wargamers love, British intervention. Almost happened too,
Union ship had the absolute temerity to stop a BRITISH ship &
remove two Confederate Spies. Lincoln had the good sense to 
quietly release them to Canada, saying to an aide, 'One war at
a time'.
There was an SPI board game (Dixie) that assumed the ACW
ended in stalemate only for it to bubble over again in the 1930s.
The ACW with TANKS & AIRCRAFT !!!! Another one for us to play.
(See LAF for just such a thing)

Offline FlyXwire

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #8 on: 12 August 2021, 01:30:36 PM »
'Too small for a Country. Too large for a Lunatic Asylum'

Priceless.  Absolutely priceless.
+1 - and something that ought to be reckoned with today, but States Rights has one heck of a Half-life (and a lot are still losing there's lives over it too).

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #9 on: 12 August 2021, 04:13:11 PM »
The best aim for the South was not to win, just to stay in existence
until the North tired of the war.

That almost happened. Atlanta and Sheridan in the Valley turned it around, made the war seem winnable.

There was an SPI board game (Dixie) that assumed the ACW
ended in stalemate only for it to bubble over again in the 1930s.
The ACW with TANKS & AIRCRAFT !!!! Another one for us to play.

TANKS, AIRCRAFT? What about GAS? Pepperoni pizza would provide some of that...
Never got around to playing Dixie, tend to stick to the ones that actually happened.
Whatever floats your boat, though.

Offline Inkpaduta

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #10 on: 12 August 2021, 06:19:43 PM »
Didn't the game Dixie also have a variant that placed it also in modern times with jets ect?

Offline has.been

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #11 on: 12 August 2021, 07:36:19 PM »
Quote
Didn't the game Dixie also have a variant that placed it also in modern times with jets ect?

Been soooo long ago I don't remember. ???

Online carlos marighela

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #12 on: 12 August 2021, 10:15:49 PM »
To be fair* Roosevelt failed to punt the likes of Mark Clark and Douglas MacArthur, much bigger failures on much bigger stages. Even Truman, the last US president to sack a senior general famously sacked MacArthur for insubordination not his innumerable other failings. As Harry said:

“ I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President. I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.”




* Quite a feat being fair to someone like Davis.  ;)
Em dezembro de '81
Botou os ingleses na roda
3 a 0 no Liverpool
Ficou marcado na história
E no Rio não tem outro igual
Só o Flamengo é campeão mundial
E agora seu povo
Pede o mundo de novo

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #13 on: 13 August 2021, 05:39:59 PM »
To be fair* Roosevelt failed to punt the likes of Mark Clark and Douglas MacArthur, much bigger failures on much bigger stages. Even Truman, the last US president to sack a senior general famously sacked MacArthur for insubordination not his innumerable other failings. As Harry said:

“ I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President. I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.”




* Quite a feat being fair to someone like Davis.  ;)

The Truman quote is fabulous.

Offline kerpob

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Re: Couldn't Jeff Davis fire anyone?
« Reply #14 on: 14 August 2021, 01:08:05 PM »
Right to the very end, when Lee's army of Northern Virginia were in rags there were warehouses full of new uniforms, but they belonged to a different state.
Not just uniforms - there were also thousands of men kept back in state militias that could have been sent to the front. Plus they had a real problem with guerrillas in areas that remained loyal to the union, as well as needing yet more thousands to guard against slave uprisings/desertions.

 

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