Warhammer Ancient Battles for Lord of the Rings Massed Battle Anyone?

[Atheling]

In that case think about the portent rules from the Ancient Greek list as a Palantir, the Bishop or Shaman entries might be useful to represent lesser magic.

The only thing that‘s not quite easy is ringwraith and wizard magic. The former imo could be represented by just giving them the terrifying special rule.
Gandalf might actually just be a LD 10 general with good combat stats and you could argue that both is due to his magic.

IIRC there are some magic type items in the back of then Shieldwall supplement that are of no use in a historical game but could be used to as abilities to enhance "characters" types.

I've just dug out the book, so.....

Family Heirlooms:

Kean Weapon- 15pts: If the To Hit dice is a natural 6 two wounds are caused

Well Balanced Axe- 30pts: Allows character to hit fist in any challenge

Heavy Sword- 25pts: If any wounds are inflicted by the blade the victim loses one attack

Triple Plaited Mail- 20pts: Regardless of strength of attacker, the wearer always saves on a 6. Counts as Light Armour.

Iron Shield- 10pts: May only be hit on a 4+

Sacred Banners and Scrolls:

Land-Waster- 50pts: Any unit within 4" of the banner may re-roll any break tests. If banner is captured, the unit must re-roll and successful break tests.

Papal Banner- 40pts: Once per turn, any unit within 12" may re-roll To Wound dice

Holy Relics- 30pts: Born by a Monk, Priest or Bishop with average stats.
Any character adjacent to the Relics or in the same unit may seek Saint's intercession. May only be used if the character is not in combat. Takes a whole turn to petition the Saint. Roll a dice at the end of the turn:

1/ Fake
2-3/ Petition unanswered
4-5/ Petition heard but more faith , +1 to next attempt. This +1 is cumulative.
6/ Prayers answered. Nest time character enters combat he is invulnerable for the first round of combat and ignores all wounds.

Not too overpowered but needs some work. Some seem ready made for ME which isn't too much of a surprise as the author, Stephen, is the brother of Colin Patten who has designed the Ragnarok Miniatures Kickstarter range of very Me looking miniatures:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ragnarokminiatures2/ragnarok-2

[DivisMal]

Yes, those rules are, too, very well suited for LotR (but actually not so much for historical) tabletop.

The relics could be a minor ring (or even a major one). Just treat a „fake“ result as „the ring doesnt listen“ or „the ring betrays you“!

[Atheling]

Yes, those rules are, too, very well suited for LotR (but actually not so much for historical) tabletop.

The relics could be a minor ring (or even a major one). Just treat a „fake“ result as „the ring doesnt listen“ or „the ring betrays you“!
[/quote]

Well, rather surprisingly, I'm very much on my way 

[Hobgoblin]

It occurred to me today that Legolas and Gimli's kills at the Hornburg (42 and 43, respectively) are very much in the realms of WHFB heroes - although I suppose that opens up the whole can of worms about Warhammer and its tacit and elastic figure-scale assumptions. (I have no idea if this was ever addressed explicitly in WAB!)

[Elbows]

Have you looked at Kings of War?  I was under the impression the newest version was aimed at suiting most Warhammer armies - perhaps some of them fit the LOTR theme?  I have no experience with the game.

[Atheling]

It occurred to me today that Legolas and Gimli's kills at the Hornburg (42 and 43, respectively) are very much in the realms of WHFB heroes - although I suppose that opens up the whole can of worms about Warhammer and its tacit and elastic figure-scale assumptions. (I have no idea if this was ever addressed explicitly in WAB!)

Have you looked at Kings of War?  I was under the impression the newest version was aimed at suiting most Warhammer armies - perhaps some of them fit the LOTR theme?  I have no experience with the game.

Guys, I'm looking to use Warhammer *Ancient* Battles, not WHFB which is way too overpowered for my tastes (by design- to keep people hooked IMHO).

Hope that clears things up gents?

[Hobgoblin]

Guys, I'm looking to use Warhammer *Ancient* Battles, not WHFB which is way too overpowered for my tastes (by design- to keep people hooked IMHO).

Hope that clears things up gents?

Clear to begin with! And I couldn't agree with you more on the flaws of WHFB.

My point was just that there's a surprising amount of distinctly larger-than-life heroics in LotR - and more so in the Silmarillion. I mean, I doubt anyone has ever killed 43 people in hand-to-hand combat in a single night. And in the First Age, you have Hurin killing 70 trolls (!).

I suppose the figure ratio could flatten the heroics out considerably, though. In that Joe Dever article on the Pelennor Fields in White Dwarf 53, he uses a 1:100 ratio. So if you're using something similar, the figure that includes a hero might only have a marginally higher WS or ST.

[Blackwolf]

I would use Age of Arthur as your basis,it’s got it all.

[LoxIslay]

My strategy to get Monsters like Trolls or giant Spiders into a historic game is to go by base size. If the Monster has the Base Size of 4 normal man in WAB it should have the wounds and attacks of 4 normal man, but keeping WS/BS S T the same.

And for a Simple Special Rule, i always look at the simplicity of Blood Bowl:

So a Tolkinesk Troll based on a viking Bondi for example would be

M 4 WS 3 BS 3 S 3 T 3 W 4 I 3 A 4 Ld 6 Pts 24

Equipment: HW, Throwing Spear

Special Rule Really Stupid
Bevor Moving Roll a D6 if a friendly Unit is in 6" of the Trolls they become Really Stupid on a 1, if no friendly Unit is in 6", they become Really Stupid on a Roll fo 1,2,3. If the Unit is Really Stupid they cant make a Move action this turn.

And i would also use Shieldwall or Arthur as base, fitting the theme. I mean the welsh army list screams orc to me. I mean they speak the black speech of mordor 

[Atheling]

Clear to begin with! And I couldn't agree with you more on the flaws of WHFB.

My point was just that there's a surprising amount of distinctly larger-than-life heroics in LotR - and more so in the Silmarillion. I mean, I doubt anyone has ever killed 43 people in hand-to-hand combat in a single night. And in the First Age, you have Hurin killing 70 trolls (!).

I suppose the figure ratio could flatten the heroics out considerably, though. In that Joe Dever article on the Pelennor Fields in White Dwarf 53, he uses a 1:100 ratio. So if you're using something similar, the figure that includes a hero might only have a marginally higher WS or ST.

Do you have a copy of that Joe Dever article you could scan for me please? That is exactly what I was looking for, then convert it to WAB using Sheildwall and possibly Age of Arthur- unlike many I have kept all my WAB supplements and rulebooks so I'm well equipped for the conversion

IIRC there are some magic type items in the back of then Shieldwall supplement that are of no use in a historical game but could be used to as abilities to enhance "characters" types.

I've just dug out the book, so.....

Family Heirlooms:

Kean Weapon- 15pts: If the To Hit dice is a natural 6 two wounds are caused

Well Balanced Axe- 30pts: Allows character to hit fist in any challenge

Heavy Sword- 25pts: If any wounds are inflicted by the blade the victim loses one attack

Triple Plaited Mail- 20pts: Regardless of strength of attacker, the wearer always saves on a 6. Counts as Light Armour.

Iron Shield- 10pts: May only be hit on a 4+

Sacred Banners and Scrolls:

Land-Waster- 50pts: Any unit within 4" of the banner may re-roll any break tests. If banner is captured, the unit must re-roll and successful break tests.

Papal Banner- 40pts: Once per turn, any unit within 12" may re-roll To Wound dice

Holy Relics- 30pts: Born by a Monk, Priest or Bishop with average stats.
Any character adjacent to the Relics or in the same unit may seek Saint's intercession. May only be used if the character is not in combat. Takes a whole turn to petition the Saint. Roll a dice at the end of the turn:

1/ Fake
2-3/ Petition unanswered
4-5/ Petition heard but more faith , +1 to next attempt. This +1 is cumulative.
6/ Prayers answered. Nest time character enters combat he is invulnerable for the first round of combat and ignores all wounds.

Not too overpowered but needs some work. Some seem ready made for ME which isn't too much of a surprise as the author, Stephen, is the brother of Colin Patten who has designed the Ragnarok Miniatures Kickstarter range of very Me looking miniatures:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ragnarokminiatures2/ragnarok-2

I would use Age of Arthur as your basis,it’s got it all.

Good idea. I was involved in the playtesting of Age of Arthur so know the book inside out.

[Atheling]

My strategy to get Monsters like Trolls or giant Spiders into a historic game is to go by base size. If the Monster has the Base Size of 4 normal man in WAB it should have the wounds and attacks of 4 normal man, but keeping WS/BS S T the same.

And for a Simple Special Rule, i always look at the simplicity of Blood Bowl:

So a Tolkinesk Troll based on a viking Bondi for example would be

M 4 WS 3 BS 3 S 3 T 3 W 4 I 3 A 4 Ld 6 Pts 24

Equipment: HW, Throwing Spear

Special Rule Really Stupid
Bevor Moving Roll a D6 if a friendly Unit is in 6" of the Trolls they become Really Stupid on a 1, if no friendly Unit is in 6", they become Really Stupid on a Roll fo 1,2,3. If the Unit is Really Stupid they cant make a Move action this turn.

And i would also use Shieldwall or Arthur as base, fitting the theme. I mean the welsh army list screams orc to me. I mean they speak the black speech of mordor 

Thanks. Taken on board. I have managed to locate the files from The WAB Forum (RIP) re: Middle Earth. Many thanks for the chap who sent them to me, you know who you are and how much I appreciate it 

[Hobgoblin]

Do you have a copy of that Joe Dever article you could scan for me please? That is exactly what I was looking for, then convert it to WAB using Sheildwall and possibly Age of Arthur- unlike many I have kept all my WAB supplements and rulebooks so I'm well equipped for the conversion

PM sent!

[Atheling]

PM sent!

Received and i have replied. Thanks mate 

[Major_Gilbear]

Glad you got everything you needed rules-wise. I really like your painting, and am looking forward to seeing what you do with this project. 

For units like Trolls that don't have a direct real-world equivalent, you could try thinking of them as 1 monster model = 4 human-sized models, and just "wrap up" their stats and costs accordingly. So for example:

A single troll might the same as four barbarian warriors. They would have the same statline, but with 4A and 4W each, and they would occupy 4x the base size (so 40mm x 40mm bases each). They would cost 4x as many points as the barbarian, and so would all the weapon/upgrade options. Wounds to the unit are assigned to one model at a time until it's dead, and then carried over to the next model, and so on (just like in the Fantasy version).

And that's it really - you don't need to do much more than that, unless you're planning something with loads of heroes and fantastical creatures (which I doubt you are, as Middle Earth is generally quite low-fantasy).

My strategy to get Monsters like Trolls or giant Spiders into a historic game is to go by base size. If the Monster has the Base Size of 4 normal man in WAB it should have the wounds and attacks of 4 normal man, but keeping WS/BS S T the same.

And for a Simple Special Rule, i always look at the simplicity of Blood Bowl:

So a Tolkinesk Troll based on a viking Bondi for example would be

M 4 WS 3 BS 3 S 3 T 3 W 4 I 3 A 4 Ld 6 Pts 24

Equipment: HW, Throwing Spear

Special Rule Really Stupid
Bevor Moving Roll a D6 if a friendly Unit is in 6" of the Trolls they become Really Stupid on a 1, if no friendly Unit is in 6", they become Really Stupid on a Roll fo 1,2,3. If the Unit is Really Stupid they cant make a Move action this turn.

Great minds and all that, eh? 

[...] unlike many I have kept all my WAB supplements and rulebooks so I'm well equipped for the conversion

As the Germans say, "Papier ist geduldig" ("Paper is patient")!

I too keep/kept all my old rulebooks. Not only do I still enjoy looking through them, but I can always carry on playing the game with them regardless of the latest new thing if I want to. Seems like that's a philosophy which is becoming more popular these days, with revivals like Oldhammer and Middlehammer.

With regards to scenarios, it could be worth tracking down some of the old GW BFME supplements for a steer? At least one iteration of the game was for bigger battles (War of the Ring, 2009), and whilst the rules/basing conventions were quite different to WHFB/WAB, the bare bones of the scenarios' set up, victory conditions, etc., could just be ported straight over as-is.

[LoxIslay]

Great minds and all that, eh? 

Reminds me to read Topics more carefully before i go to bad  Somehow missed your post completely. I think i blame the lacking sleep over the week...

Nothing is better than old rulebooks pondering