The Crusades - some questions

[glenning]

Hello everyone, I recently got a bunch of Perry crusades minis from a friend but since I know very little about the different crusades I need some help - my main questions is shields - I'd like the force to have a unified look with almost identical shields, which faction would work then? Kite or heater shields? The area of Europe where the crusaders came from doesn't really matter as long as these minis would work with a faction that had somewhat identical shields to tie the hold force together, so which faction/unit might that be? You get the idea - thanks in advance!

PS. I was thinking knight hospitaller at first, but I'm guessing they all had the black robes? DS.

Also - the two cloth trips on the back of the helmet on the sergeants - should they be in the same heraldic color as the shields? Again, thanks in advance!

If the "identical shields" thing is a no-go - would these guys work as some central-European/Scandinavian "identical shields" guys from the 11th century or are they to "crusady"?

[Atheling]

In as far as we know, there were no uniform shield patterns during the Crusades; as more and more Crusades took place heraldry started to creep in which made it all the more unlikely that there would have been any uniformity (the whole point of heraldry was to mark individuals out).

That said, for minor troop types such sergeants and the like, you could get away with a uniform colour/patterns as a mark of expression on your part. Unlikely historically, but they are your miniatures and you can paint them up as you like

The Perry Crusade range is specific to the First Crusade so very little uniformity. If you look on the Perry website under their Crusades, Christian section you will see that the last packs in the range are Knights Hospitaller- these were added to the range years after the rest but are more specific to the Second Crusade as opposed to the First Crusade, where the shape of shields had begin the very slow journey through the centuries to the classic "heater" shield.

Hope that helps a little?

[Cubs]

For 1st Crusade think Normans for the Crusaders and you won't go far wrong, so kite shields and perhaps even the odd round shield will still be there (Byzantines still used the round shield a lot I think). Slowly over time the kite shields got smaller and the top edge became flatter, gradually morphing into the heater shape later on in following crusades. No heraldry as such at this time, although you might expect a lord's personal retinue to wear his colours and carry his banner, but for the most part people just decorated themselves and their gear as they saw fit, or maybe following a family design.

1st Crusade was too early for the Templars and Hospitallers so they're not there yet, the main groups being  'French' Normans, 'Italian' Normans and Franks under various Dukes and Princes. They also picked up other groups of European fighters along the way, some under minor nobles and some literally just wandering east, who shuffled themselves into the various commands. There wasn't an overall military leader, which led to various quarrels and plenty of jostling as ambitions locked horns (mostly the Italian Norman Bohemond and the Southern Frank Raymond) and sometimes people would change the lord they served part way through the campaign, so you have a lot of flexibility as regards building forces. The knights and mounted men-at-arms did suffer badly from a loss of horses as the campaign went on, so your mounted vs foot ratio kind of depends on how close you want to stick to history.

[FierceKitty]

If you don't care for Hospitaller black - which looks dashing but was killingly hot - bear in mind they switched to bright red after a while.

[JohnDSD2]

Have a look at 'Battle Flags' shop of transfers you can get for the crusades.

Not necessarily uniform shields but 'themed', might help with ideas.

Also, Holy Orders had different colours for different grades.

So Templar Sargeats wore Black with a red cross and the Knights wore white with a red cross.

Hope that helps.

[Tonhel]

Also this is not my quote, but this sums everything perfectly about heraldry for Templars. Certainly in the early periode of the Templars, forget the white shield with the red cross.

The period of the Templars was one where uniformity did not exist; there was no universal calendar, no "correct" time of day and certainly no military uniforms as we understand the term. Monasteries each made their own arrangements for obtaining cloth and making up the garments worn by monks - and the same [most] certainly applies to the Drapers in Templar Preceptories. The idea of uniform shields is a modern one, suiting modern concepts of how military organisations should appear.
...
It is likely that, just as in the case of the flag, Templar shields could vary in their design - certainly the shape changed over time and I suspect that the design did too. Senior people in the Order might choose their own shield design and it is possible that the rank and file did the same. Uniformity was an unknown concept, beyond what is set out in the Templar Rule.
....
The baucent (piebald, meaning black and white) banner definitely did not have to be the same as the design on the shield - compare the Hospitaller's 1260 banner of red with a white cross, while shields of that time seem to have been black.

EDIT: Also the podcast "History of the Crusades" is golden.

For hospitallers this picture is most historical accurate for the different periodes.


Edit 2: This is a perfect example of a Templar knight during the third crusade.

[Maniac]

It is a bit of a misnomer that heraldry is a later invention.  England's three lions comes from Normandy's two lions, which predate the First Crusade by quite a while.  Various forms were in use throughout the Dark/Middle Ages (I think it's Olaf's Saga which talks about his men using a cross, ala Constantine).

That said, there were not rules around it per say and the whole army wouldn't have uniform devices.  Retinues might have used color schemas in simple fashion to make it obvious who you served.  Thus I think it somewhat up to you where you want to go.

As to the Knights Templar, they may have used a black/white motif ala the beauseant, on their shields.  It is certainly how I like to model my Templars.  Note that their foot wore a brown/black surcoat vs the knight's white or their priest's green. 

As to shields, it depends on which crusade.  1st Crusade would be largely kite/norman shields, 3rd Crusade you are getting closer to classical heater shields

[SotF]

It is a bit of a misnomer that heraldry is a later invention.  England's three lions comes from Normandy's two lions, which predate the First Crusade by quite a while.  Various forms were in use throughout the Dark/Middle Ages (I think it's Olaf's Saga which talks about his men using a cross, ala Constantine).

That said, there were not rules around it per say and the whole army wouldn't have uniform devices.  Retinues might have used color schemas in simple fashion to make it obvious who you served.  Thus I think it somewhat up to you where you want to go.

As to the Knights Templar, they may have used a black/white motif ala the beauseant, on their shields.  It is certainly how I like to model my Templars.  Note that their foot wore a brown/black surcoat vs the knight's white or their priest's green. 

As to shields, it depends on which crusade.  1st Crusade would be largely kite/norman shields, 3rd Crusade you are getting closer to classical heater shields

I'm pretty sure that a lot of the colors and heraldry started even earlier than that.

The greeks and others did it with their shields, and a relatively standardized color or colors for your force is one where it's easier for someone to tell friend from foe when things get chaotic

[Tonhel]

Here this is an interesting blog from a re-enactor that wants to make himself a tempalr kit.
http://www.durhammedievalcombatacademy.org/Portfolio_Knight_Templar.html?fbclid=IwAR3Dhh3HsUc9WPF9hhxTnMkj2m8ZQWbDkllTzZQDHOAVWGZ46gAqGLNBEFM
Altough the kit I posted a couple of posts above is imo the most historical correct for a templar around the third crusade.

Also a quote from Brother Ranulf I think is very interesting

The historian and author Ian Heath has stated that the baucent banner was in use from 1128 and "the Templars had a secondary banner of a red cross on a white field, and each commandery had its own banner plus a reserve one to be unfurled if the first was lost", indicating that there were a number of different banners in use at the same time - but he gives no supporting evidence for this. If this is correct, then it may also help to explain the many varieties of known shield designs, with each commandery (Preceptory) coming up with its own designs for flag and shields.

It's from the forum Livinghistory.co.uk.

[glenning]

Thanks a lot everyone! I might go with a black/yellow scheme or red and white - paint the shields in the same colours but with a lot of different designs - horizontal/vertical stripes, half/half etc. etc. Like these:

[glenning]

Btw, the "sash" attached to the back of the helmets on the sargents - same color as the shield colors or something else?

[Michi]

I would not want to limit myself to a uniform colour or pattern for crusaders. They came from all over Europe after all.

[Tonhel]

Some cool pictures!

The sash attached to the helmet can be any colour, but you could chose one colour to group the retinue together.

I.e I gave all the sashes for my retinue the colour red. I don't know if I would do it again, but now it is this for a 11th century Spanish retinue.

[glenning]

Great looking minis - thanks yet again!

[Atheling]

I've gone two different ways.

For my Normans i hand painted all my shields as below:



For my Christian Spanish I went off the beaten track and painted a colour scheme: