Help or guidance needed for biblical project?

[Tim Haslam]

Ok so a bit of piste,
Biblical, Midianite Arabs.

Need some advice on standards?
My research is limited, but I’m starting to realise these guys were just nomadic raiders, perhaps just grabbing cattle etc. Rather than on some noble conquest or huge power grabbing mission.
So now I’m thinking perhaps they don’t even have unit or regiment standards?
However I’ll be playing Warhammer Ancient Battles, and these are an option for the army and probably necessary if I stand any chance of a slim victory!

So I need suggestions for standards, hypothetical or otherwise?
Do I go for flags?
Or some sort of Assyrian copy?
Or horse (camel) hair type standards?

Ideas?
Thanks

[Citizen Sade]

Maybe just an “army” standard for colour if they're a thing in WAB?

In the absence of any evidence, I'd be tempted to go with some sort of icon on a pole. Something symbolising local fauna or a pagan God, perhaps.

[Golgotha]

This may have some ideas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midian#:~:text=the%20historical%20scene%E2%80%A6-,Religion,the%20Queen%20of%20Heaven%2C%20Ashteroth.

A bronze snake banner could look good?

Not very helpful but see page 85 https://issuu.com/rakursstdio/docs/nigel_stillman__nigel_tallis._armie

[Tim Haslam]

I was going down the icon on a pole idea!

My Google Foo led me to those Wikipedia results. I’d like to find some military history?

Who makes 6mm or 10mm camels?
I could make one into a banner?

[tikitang]

I’m starting to realise these guys were just nomadic raiders, perhaps just grabbing cattle etc.

Yep, with the exception of Moses' wife and father-in-law, and the traders who sold Joseph to Potiphar, Midianites always appear in the Old Testament as nomadic raiders.

In the Book of Judges when they're raiding the Israelite tribes and are eventually defeated by the Judge Gideon, they are said to ride camels, wear gold earrings, and their 'kings' wore purple robes, gold pendants, as well as decorate their camels with gold ornaments.

I doubt they'd go raiding with a banner at all, but if they did, I'd also go with a bronze icon on a pole. The Wikipedia article Golgotha linked to said that a bronze snake was found among archaeological relics, so that would be a pretty cool idea.

[Tim Haslam]

Thanks, extremely useful information.

Agreed no standards on a raid.
But it is WAB so a little bit of Hollywood wouldn’t look out of place!

DeeZee models make some snakes?

[Golgotha]

This has the names of the kings and some odd events https://historycollection.com/18-eliminatations-of-the-ancient-world/8/

Seems to be a general lack of military history on this topic. Most references being well just that Biblical and referring to their defeat by the Israelites.

[Tim Haslam]

I’ve got plenty of images of an Assyrian stone relief.
This gives great contemporary evidence to what the ranks and file looked like.

But just that quote above, should help with the character models.

[LeadAsbestos]

I'd go all-out! If those pesky Hebrews can have their Ark, why not build a "standard" with a vignette stand of a brass bull carried on a litter, a flame-eyed snake urn, painted vases with mysterious smoke/incense?

Endless possibilities.

[Rochejaquelein]

Maybe you could use Arabian petroglyphs as shield decorations? Or replicate them out of green stuff to use as an icon on top a pole? Lots of images of dromedary camels, rams, and fertility goddesses.
http://saudi-archaeology.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Eagles-Nest-Petroglyph-A.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Petroglyphs_Wadi_Rum_Jordan1551.jpg
https://www.bradshawfoundation.com/middle_east/saudi_arabia_rock_art/photographs/21b.jpg
http://saudi-archaeology.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Petroglyph-Bonanza-Camel.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Petroglyph_at_Bir_Hima_in_Saudi_Arabia.jpg/1920px-Petroglyph_at_Bir_Hima_in_Saudi_Arabia.jpg
https://destinationksa.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Horsemen-rock-art-Saudi-Arabia-710x434.jpg

This is southern Arabian (Sabeans), but I could easily see a similar looking ram atop a staff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almaqah#/media/File:Panel_Almaqah_Louvre_DAO18.jpg

[zippyfusenet]

tikitang, that's an excellent summary of the references in Judges to Midianites. The only thing I would add is that their gold earrings are described as an Ishmaelite custom. Identifying Midianites as Ishmaelites implies that they were Hebrew speakers, as were their Israelite, Ammonite, Moabite and Edomite neighbors. Probably has no bearing on the appearance of their host (tribal host, not an army), but one of the few factoids we have, beside Beduin lifeways and lots of camels.

[tikitang]

Identifying Midianites as Ishmaelites implies that they were Hebrew speakers, as were their Israelite, Ammonite, Moabite and Edomite neighbors.

Well, according to Genesis, the Edomites, Midianites, Israelites, Moabites and Ammonites were all (ultimately) descended from Terah, the father of Abraham, so that makes sense.

Confusingly, sometimes the term "Ishmaelite" and "Midianite" are used interchangeably in the Bible (such as the traders who sell Joseph, who are identified as both) and, as you mentioned, the fact that in Judges, when the Israelites under Gideon's command loot the fallen Midianites' earrings, the author of the text notes that the wearing of such rings was an Ishmaelite custom.

However, the Bible also makes clear that while the Ishmaelites and Midianites were both descended from Abraham's sons (Ishmael and Midian) they were born from two different mothers, Hagar and Keturah. I wonder if their tribes unified into one group at some point, hence why they were referred to interchangeably in this way?

[zippyfusenet]

However, the Bible also makes clear that while the Ishmaelites and Midianites were both descended from Abraham's sons (Ishmael and Midian) they were born from two different mothers, Hagar and Keturah. I wonder if their tribes unified into one group at some point, hence why they were referred to interchangeably in this way?

My own opinion is that the Genesis genealogies were constructed based on language affinities c.800 BC, so if the Bible reckons that Ammon and Moab descend from Abraham's cousins Ben-Ammi and Moab, and ultimately from the eponymous ancestor Heber, those tribes probably spoke Hebrew. I don't take all the Genesis details too seriously. Genesis tells some unflattering stories about Lot and his daughters. I presume the Ammonites and Moabites told different stories about themselves, and about their frenemy Israelite neighbors. My opinion. FWIW

[Tim Haslam]

This has all been very interesting reading, thanks again.
I’m happy with ideas for standards.
Plus I’m tuned into the gold earrings and purple clothes.

Musical instruments?
A drum?
A simple horn?

Thoughts?

[tikitang]

Lyres, lutes, horns, cymbals, drums, tamborines, bells, flutes.

Any of these are good for the period!