Late Renaissance Italian Wars Milanese

[Terry37]

I am doing some work on my late Italian Wars Milanese army and the army list I am using say they are allowed up to two pike units. I am not sure who these are supposed to though as I can't find any reference to Milanese pikes? I wouldn't expect them to be Swiss since they were already fighting for the French, so maybe Imperial/Landsknecht, or Spanish??? I see city militia as spearmen, bows or harquebuses.

Any help here is appreciated.

Terry 

[Atheling]

I know this sounds like a daft question (and probably is) but does the list say "Milanese Pike" or just "Pike"?

[Terry37]

No Atheling, a very good questions. Actually I've always felt there were no dumb questions...just dumb answers!

It just says "2 Pike".

So sounds liek it is very open?

Terry

[Atheling]

No Atheling, a very good questions. Actually I've always felt there were no dumb questions...just dumb answers!

It just says "2 Pike".

So sounds liek it is very open?

Terry

Erm.... it is rather open! Off the top of my head, I'm trying to think of when the Milanese might have employed mercenaries either Swiss Landsknecht but I'm coming up blank. Various Italian City States did employ their own pikemen but again, the details are hazy as I'm not away near my books at present.

Maybe someone close to their book collection or with a better memory can pipe in?

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

Don't tell him, Pike!

Reverting to sensible answers (for the time being), it depends on how "late" your "late Italian Wars" army is.  I'm not sure what rules/army lists you are using, but my Field of Glory: Renaissance lists (Vol. 1 - Trade & Treachery) has this to say on the subject of Italian Wars pike:-

"Pike-armed Florentine militia are first mentioned in 1506 when 10,000 trained by professional soldiers were fielded, although Machiavelli mentions in a letter that 12,000 were present, and 20,000 may have been planned.  They may have ceased to exist after 1512 when the Medici were restored to power....  They are described as being issued with a pike and harness (ie body armour) and a uniform of a white jerkin and hose with one leg red and the other white.....With the exception of Florence, and to a lesser extent the Papacy, Italian infantry rarely used the pike, and even when they did they were in such small numbers that they do not justify representation by a battle group."

In the "Italian States" army list - which covers the period from 1494 until all states other than Venice ceased to field independent armies - the only pike listed are as "Landsknechts or other mercenaries" and are limited to units of 10-16 bases (up to 2 of which can be "heavy weapon" - ie halberd or two-handed sword), and only 24 bases maximum, so you could have at most, say, 2 units, each of 12 bases, either all pike, or 10 pike and 2 heavy weapons.  A separate Papal list allows for similar numbers of bases of Romagnol pike for most of this period, whilst an "early" Venetian list only allows "Romagnol, Landsknecht or other mercenary" pike, but notes that these only appear sporadically after their defeat at Agnadello in 1509 (the "early" Venetian list runs up to 1550; the "late" Venetian list allows Landsknecht pike up to 1601, and optional militia pike - the latter only classified as "poor" - up to 1581).

Not sure if that helps you very much (especially if you are using a different rule set!), but I would say that all pike in a Milanese army, for the period you are working with, would most likely be Landsknechts.

BvW

[Terry37]

Thanks for the help and the grammar /history lesson. I play DBA-HX with the attrition rules from DBN. In all of my books I have found no specific reference to long, pointy pole units for the Milanese. I had assumed it might be landsknechts, which seems the general thought here as well  so that is the route I will go. My Venetian opponent has Swiss long, pointy pole guys so I am expecting some "Bad War"!!! 

Terry

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

Thanks for the help and the grammar /history lesson.

Sorry - it wasn't meant to sound like a lecture!  To be completely frank, that was all taken from the "Trade & Treachery" FoG:R army list book.  Any accurate/dodgy history (or grammar) is entirely down to its author(s) - and there are one or two howlers, the early Henry VIII army being an example (just ask Stuart Mulligan on here)!

Yes, Landsknechts v Swiss is definitely a fight you only want to watch from a safe distance.  Anywhere in India sounds good....

[Atheling]

Anywhere in India sounds good....

 

[Terry37]

No worry Baron, no offense was taken or intended. This is a hobby for me and I am always open to learning- always....and even at my tender years of mid-70's.

Terry