Never Mind the Billhooks Deluxe Review

[Yarkshire Gamer]

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https://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/2022/11/never-mind-billhooks-deluxe-rules-review.html

Welcome to another Yarkshire Gamer Book Review.

In this episode I look at the new Deluxe version of the Wars of the Roses wargames rules which have been revised and expanded to cover different periods either side of that conflict including my favourite, the Italian Wars.

I have been sent this review copy by the lovely people at Wargames Illustrated but as you would expect with Yarkshire Gamer I haven't let that cloud my judgement and I go through both the positives and negatives (in my opinion) of the book.

Overall I'm impressed, great production values, lots of great examples to guide you through the rules, lots of scenarios and background.

I'm not a fan of the Italian Wars section, but thats probably because its my favourite period and I have my own views on it. Who wants to see their primary period of gaming relegated to 10 pages in a rule set for an earlier period 😆

A solid 8 out of 10

Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer

The book is avaliable here

https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/product/never-mind-the-billhooks-deluxe/

#wargames #wargaming #historical #tabletopgames #tabletopgaming #hobbies #games #history #nevermindthebillhooks #waroftheroses

[Elk101]

Interesting review. The game appears to be fairly decent. Sadly I use Rosemary's brushes and have recently started using a wet palette. Who knew I was so misguided!

[Mako]

What don't you like about the Italian Wars rules?

Do you have any suggestions you care to share to make those better?

I'm very interested in the Italian Wars, so would like to know more about your thoughts on the subject.

[Yarkshire Gamer]

What don't you like about the Italian Wars rules?

Do you have any suggestions you care to share to make those better?

I'm very interested in the Italian Wars, so would like to know more about your thoughts on the subject.

I didn't want to focus on the negatives because in general its a great set of rules for the other periods.

I'm not a fan of trying to shoehorn different periods into existing rules, especially when it's just 10 pages out of 180 for a war that covered over 60 years especially when  there are large differences in the style of fighting and the widespread introduction of gunpowder.

Billhooks has 8 figure Cavalry units which represents around 100 - 150 men but then has 24 figure Pike Blocks representing 1,000s it doesn't make any sense.

The rest is just basic stuff I don't agree with, Archers with longbow  and no mention of Italian City State Bow. No mention of Melee troops in Crossbow formations, Bill's and Halberds being a "weapon of last resort" when parts of the Swiss Kells used them (or similar weapons), no mention of Italian Sword and Buckler (or shield men), dismissal of Italian Pike even though they improved considerably in performance during the war. The usual Italian Heavy Cavalry don't want to fight. No mention of the Lance system or thoughts on how to represent it etc etc

And that's just from the first 3 pages 

How would I make them better for the period, easy don't use them, use them for the period they were designed for and use a more period relevant set.

If you don't already follow Yarkshire Gamer I am a big Italian Wars player and collection owner so I can get a bit passionate about the subject 

Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer

[Atheling]

If you don't already follow Yarkshire Gamer I am a big Italian Wars player and collection owner so I can get a bit passionate about the subject 
The Yarkshire Gamer

I can vo8uch for the quality of Ken's Italian Wars vids and his blog too. If you're interested in The Italian Wars you should check out his blog here:
http://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/search/label/28mm%20Italian%20Wars

Also, Ken's YouTube channel is good fun as is the Podcast he puts so much effort into:
https://kenrtai.podbean.com/

Finally, there's our The Italian Wars Wargaming Group on Facebook that is well worth joining as we have a lot of members, who are all heavily into The Italian Wars. We have a few manufacturers involved too so you will be privy to new releases early on. No doubt there is a decent cross section of Never Mind then Billhooks FB Group members in our group too. Soon to be more no doubt!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/5532485986825121

[AndyC]

Thanks for the very fair and generally positive review, Ken. I will happily take "A solid 8/10" from a Yorkshireman as high praise indeed!
I was never going to please everyone with this, especially the Big battle period specialists, but people who have enjoyed vanilla WOTR Billhooks will find the transition to Italia an easy one to make (which was the idea, really). I make no claims for it as a simulation - rather as an entertainment with a bit of local flavour.
A closer reading of the Italia chapter will show I do allow for Italian Sword and Buckler men (admittedly only as skirmishers rather than formed companies), the reference to halberds as weapons of last resort relates only to Italian Militia (they are , in fact, pretty handy as part of Swiss/Landsknecht pike blocks) and I anticipated that my assessment of the battlefield performance of various national types was always going to be controversial (see my caveat on page 87). And does anyone nowadays really understand how the Lance system worked in practice on the battlefield? Note that the game has no notional figure:man ratio, so a 12 figure "company" can represent as many (or as few) figures as you want, according to your preferences. The WOTR rules have been used successfully for a Towton refight with 1500 figures on the table.
Glad to see that you appreciate the overall quality of the production, Dan and the Wargames Illustrated team have done a great job into converting my scrawl into a thing of some beauty (in my eyes anyway). And, once again, thanks for the review - the first I have read. I certainly took it well.

[Yarkshire Gamer]

Cheers Andy,

Thanks for taking the review as I meant it to be, which was I believe a fair assessment, from a none Billhooks player and mostly Big Game player. I think it's important to get honest opinions from outside an established set of current players.

I didn't put the detailed description of my thoughts on part of the Italian Wars section in the video because I didn't want to detract from the otherwise positive review by picking on 10 pages of the rules, with my subjective but experienced views on Italian Wars gaming.

I think some of my criticism comes from the section being too short for what is a lengthy period of warfare and as a result space isn't available to cover everything and things like the halberd reference have just been missed off. There is always a danger in expanding the historical period on a set of rules, especially into what many see as a new "period"

I do understand the discrepancies between unit sizes and reality, for new players to the period having larger Cavalry units is a visual thing and not having big Pike Blocks is a way of not putting off newer players from the more daunting side of representing early Renaissance warfare. 24 figures is never going to cut it for me as a Pike formation, its so disproportionate when compared to the 8 figure Cavalry.

Anyway that was just my worries about the first 3 pages of the section   

I'm am sure the rules will be a great success, they are great value and really well done. A number of people have already expressed an interest in my comments section on getting the rules having watched the video and that's brilliant.

As you say a solid 8 out of 10 is very high praise in Yorkshire, ive seen incredible achievements met with "it's alright that" most of my life 

Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer

[Mako]

Hi Ken,

Thank you for the reply and info.  I really appreciate.

I'm definitely going to get the deluxe set, since I like the basic one, and can use it for other things.

Which rules set, or rules sets do you consider to be the best for the Italian Wars, say, from 1490 - 1525, or so?

Looking forward to your reply with interest, since I'd really like to run various historical and hypothetical games, and perhaps even a linked campaign, or a number of sieges for the period at hand.

It is such an interesting period, with a nice variety of troop types, and very colorful flags and units.

The various forces changing sides during the period also adds to my interest in it.


Best regards,

Rob

[Yarkshire Gamer]

Hi Ken,

Thank you for the reply and info.  I really appreciate.

I'm definitely going to get the deluxe set, since I like the basic one, and can use it for other things.

Which rules set, or rules sets do you consider to be the best for the Italian Wars, say, from 1490 - 1525, or so?

Looking forward to your reply with interest, since I'd really like to run various historical and hypothetical games, and perhaps even a linked campaign, or a number of sieges for the period at hand.

It is such an interesting period, with a nice variety of troop types, and very colorful flags and units.

The various forces changing sides during the period also adds to my interest in it.


Best regards,

Rob

Cheers Rob, we use a rule set called Furioso which, with the additional Italian Wars supplement is very specific to the period.

I did a series of 4 "How to videos" on the rules on my Utubes video channel the first one is linked below



There is also a really good campaign set of rules which I've reviewed in 3 parts (part 1 below) but sadly haven't had chance to play yet.



It's my favourite period so I can be quite vocal on it 

Welcome to the Italian Wars, it isn't cheap but it is the best looking !

Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer

[MaleGriffin]

Thank you for the review! I'm very much looking forward to receiving my copy!

[Yarkshire Gamer]

Thank you for the review! I'm very much looking forward to receiving my copy!

No worries, really glad it was useful for you 

Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer