Infos about early/mid eighties Bundeswehr

[Wellington]

Hi!

Don't laugh ...  Westgerman looking for help concerning the Bundeswehr.

I'm looking for information about the uniforms, organisation, vehicles etc around 1983. It seems there is a lack of proper wargamer literature and lot of confusion in the internet

Growing up with some NATO excercises in our area, I remember not much.

Cheers

Wellington

[SJWi]

Hi, I had a similar query a few months ago and asked a question that is on page 4 of this section of LAF. There were several answers with links to a variety of resources. I managed to find what I needed which was the ORBAT of a Panzer Division circa 1984.

[Wellington]

This one?

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=136033.0

Thx! One step in my quest!

What do you know about numbers on the tank turret? I have seen pictures from ther mid eighties of Leos with numbers like in the second world war, left and right on the turret.

[CapnJim]

Not all Bundeswehr AFVs had the number markings, but the ones that did, it was indeed Company-Platoon-Tank, as in WW2.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

The Tankograd books might be of use:

There are a number on the Bundeswehr, including a number on the Leopards and M48s.

https://www.tankograd.com/cms/website.php?id=/en/index/publikationen/militaerfarhzeug_spezial.htm

[SJWi]

Sorry, can't help with your tank markings question. Not a big issue in 1/600!

[Jemima Fawr]

Aha!  You've found the link to the earlier thread.

You might like this page on my blog, which shows the tank type used by each brigade year-on-year: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/2019/09/02/beware-of-the-leopard-part-2-1980s-west-german-tank-distribution/

Note however, that incremental minor upgrades within a sub-type are almost impossible to track, so where it says for example, 'Leopard 1A1A1', there will almost certainly have been steady upgrades through 1A1A2, 1A1A3 & 1A1A4.

Uniforms were all the standard grey-green 'moleskin' West German uniforms.  These quickly faded to a rather silvery-green, not unlike those hairy desert plants you might find in a dry garden.  Shirts were a somewhat darker grey-green.  German flags were universally worn on the shoulders of both jackets and shirts.  Helmets and webbing were dark olive drab, with the helmets being invariably covered with netting and garnish,  The camouflage helmet covers seen during the 50s, 60s and into the 70s had gone, as had the camouflage uniforms.  Flecktarn camouflage uniforms didn't appear until the 1990s.  Berets were coloured by the branch of the brigade; black for armour, green for infantry, maroon for airborne, red for artillery & engineers, blue for medical, etc, with cap-badges showing the branch of the individual unit.

Most AFVs within a battalion were numbered, using large, three-digit, white-outlined numbers and the WW2 German style of Company/Platoon/Vehicle.  However, div/bde headquarters and independent companies were often not numbered and softskin vehicles were not normally numbered.  Note that the battalion HQ Company took the company number 1, the 'teeth' companies would be 2, 3 & 4 and the Mortar Company would be 5.  IIRC, company HQs would be 0 and platoons 1-3.  Vehicles within each platoon being 1-4. 

Vehicles were also normally marked with a large black & white Iron Cross on the sides and standard NATO tactical markings front and rear, as well as the unit heraldic shield.  Vehicle registration plates were also carried front and rear.  These were typically white and had the German flag at the start of the number, which for some reason always started with 'Y-'.  I've no idea what the Y stands for!

Vehicles started being repainted in NATO three-colour camouflage from around 1985.  The pattern was approved in 1984, though many softskin vehicles were still painted in the old-style plain yellow-olive until well into the 1990s.  Then repainted in the new camo scheme, the Iron Cross and vehicle numbers became much smaller and the numbers, along with the NATO tactical markings became low-visibility light grey.  The heraldic shields mostly disappeared or became low-vis versions.  The hi-vis registration plates remained, though they could theoretically be removed for camouflage purposes.  Heer helicopters and Luftwaffe jets had started adopting new camouflage schemes and low-vis markings prior to this.

Anyway, I hope this helps. 

[Wellington]

Excellent page! Thx!

[bluewillow]

I have a bit of info, what do you need re units?
Tanks, mechanized or infantry? Which area North tag or Centag?

Uniforms are green, flecktarn was not introduced until 1990. Armoured and soft skins vehicles are nato green until 1984 when the three colour nato was adopted.

Soft skins adopted three colour officially in 1987 but green was still present in 91 when I was on exchange (engineers), Armoured and cavalry units armour and soft skins started introduction of three colour in 85.

https://kampfgruppewillow.blogspot.com/search/label/Bundeswehr

If you want camo look at the Bundesgrenzschultz which I completed last year.

https://kampfgruppewillow.blogspot.com/search/label/Bundesgrenzschutz



Have a look at Cold War gamer he has some good info

https://coldwargamer.blogspot.com/2013/11/wargames-units-german-army-at-waidhause.html

Cheers
Matt

[Michi]

Vehicles were also normally marked with a large black & white Iron Cross on the sides and standard NATO tactical markings front and rear, as well as the unit heraldic shield.  Vehicle registration plates were also carried front and rear.  These were typically white and had the German flag at the start of the number, which for some reason always started with 'Y-'.  I've no idea what the Y stands for!

This is, because there is no Y in any registration, which identifies regions or cities on civilian license plates. X is the same, but reserved for German military vehicles under direct NATO command.
Heraldics were not uncommon, but officially not part of any paint scheme (not allowed, but accepted). Tactical markings on front and rear were always on the driver's side (left hand drive in Germany). The MLC markings were on the front right and on the right door (tanks only on the front right).

Iron crosses only on armoured vehicles left and right side, never on softskins! Here is a little celection of some from that era which I've painted:


All above explained here:

https://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/a_relaunch/bw_tarn_fz_mark-a.htm

Hi Wellington,

what you are looking for is the Heeresstruktur IV. Google it in addition with the units you want to know about (e.g. Panzergrenadierbataillon, Panzerkompanie, Pionierzug, Jägergruppe, Sanitätstrupp etc.):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliederung_des_Heeres_(Bundeswehr,_Heeresstruktur_4)

Cheers

Michi

[trev]

Nice links guys.  One of Michi's pieces of advice I remember from the Guild (hopefully correctly) was that if you can mix any ratio of black, white and yellow together you get the colour of at least one Bundeswehr vehicle somewhere. 

[Wellington]

One of Michi's pieces of advice I remember from the Guild (hopefully correctly) was that if you can mix any ratio of black, white and yellow together you get the colour of at least one Bundeswehr vehicle somewhere. 

 

[SJWi]

Wellington, you could also look at the range of Micromark ORBATS now sold via Wargames Vault .No idea how accurate they are but they are normally pretty reliable, and I know they cover what you are looking for. 

[Wellington]

Thx to all! Very usefull Informations!

[carlos marighela]

Hi!

Don't laugh ...  Westgerman looking for help concerning the Bundeswehr.

I'm looking for information about the uniforms, organisation, vehicles etc around 1983. It seems there is a lack of proper wargamer literature and lot of confusion in the internet

Growing up with some NATO excercises in our area, I remember not much.

Cheers

Wellington

Quite right. Lots of misinformation and 90% of Google searches in English comes back with some nonsense from Team Wankee. As someone who has been searching on and off for a long time for platoon and company level organisations under Heerestruktur 4 I feel your pain.

The Gliederung for the Heer as a whole is readily accessible, albeit it changed significantly across the decade. STANS for all types of unit down to company level are easily found, there's an amazing number of ex-comrades sites that go into meticulous detail about which units were part of which brigade/ division.

It's below company level that it all gets a lot harder.  There's also quite a bit of variety between various types of units, panzergrenadiers in Marder, in the MTW (M113) and the various jager units. Much of the info supplied in the other thread is correct but my research (and I don't claim to be an expert on these things) suggest that there is quite a bit of misinformation around the Marder borne panzergrenadiers.

Many of the more accessible sites just show, if they show them at all, an organogram displaying the vehicles. In the case of the Marder zug, this is 3X Marders under HS4 , ie from 1980 through to the early 1990s. By the start of the 1980s the Marders had been fitted with provision for Milan. This was one per platoon at first but by the end of the decade, it had risen to two per platoon (I have seen no evidence that 3 per platoon was achieved in this period). The inclusion of the Milan reduced the available seating space in the Marder and the number of potential dismounts went from seven down to six.

As far as I can tell, the six dismounts were the assistant gruppe commander, an MG-3 gunner, a number 2 for the MG-3 with additional ammo and/or the spare barrel, a Pzf-44 rocket launcher and two additional riflemen. All save the machine gunner being G-3 armed, although several MP2 (Uzi) were available as weapons that could be fired from the ball mounts in the Marder or potentially used in the dismounted role.

From what I have found the platoon itself consisted of two such squads (gruppe) and a command squad (zugtrupp). This is clearly marked on period STAN diagrams, a copy of one such I will link to, in this case the example is the PzGren company of 361 Panzer Battalion. The command squad itself seems to have consisted of a Platoon commander, assistant platoon commander, two marksmen with G-3s and mounted optics, a radioman/signaller and and additional chap who is either the platoon medic/ supernumary or a spare rifleman depending on your source.  As you can see the infantry dismounts were fairly small in number. If the squad was carrying the Milan, the number of pure riflemen diminished even further and for this reason an additional panzergrenadier truppe was held at company level to bulk out the numbers.


Oddly enough, all this digging and diving merely brought me full circle as I was keen to test the credentials of the organisation provided in the Cold War supplement  to Force on Force., knowing that some of their info in other supplements was decidedly wrong. Pleased to say they seem to have been right all along. 

I'm still researching the Pzgren/jaeger company mounted in MTW but it's fair to say it was a larger organisation with 3 squads of 8-9 and three MTWs per platoon and yes Milan could be mounted on the MTW/M113:



Organisational chart for 361 Panzer battalion, a mixed battalion with a Panzer Grenadier company.

http://www.traditionsverband-kuelsheim.de/attachments/article/213/Chronik%20PzBtl%20361.pdf

Some useful footage in your period of interest:



If you want further detail you could try asking on this forum: https://www.cold-war.de/

Or you could send through a query to the state archives in Frankfurt for the relevant training manual(s). I don't know if this sort of info is in the 1980s version of Der Riebert but if it is there are any number of copies of the mid-80s version out there on ebay etc.

Hope that helps.