West German Panzer Division ORBATS mid 1980s

[SJWi]

Hi, some friends and I are planning to game 1980s Cold War Battlegroup/Brigade level games at 1-1 scale using 1/600 models/. I have agreed to buy the Bundeswehr which makes a change from my normal GSFG and BAOR whihc I game in 1/300 and 15mm.

 However, I am struggling to find accurate "theoretical" ORBATs for a "Heer" Panzer Brigade. I have found several reference works but can't work out the basic platoon/troop, company/squadron, battalion ORBAT.  I am really only interested in the number of vehicles involved. For instance I think a tank "troop" ( to use British terminology) was comprised of a 2 tank Platoon Sergeants Section and a 2 tank Platoon Leaders Section. What the ORBAT was above that I have no real idea!  The PzGrenadier ORBAT has really confused me!

Any help much appreciated .

Thanks in anticipation.     

[carlos marighela]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliederung_des_Feldheeres_(Bundeswehr,_Heeresstruktur_4)#1._Panzerdivision


https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwwestgerman.pdf

[SJWi]

Carlos, thanks for these. I did locate the Fire and Fury document but unless I just can't seen it there isn't for instance a breakdown saying how many tanks in a Panzer Company, plus I don't understand the Marder organisation.  It seems to say only 4 Marders per Company, whilst I would have expected 4 per platoon.

Thanks for the links.,

Regards.

[Westfalia Chris]

Carlos, thanks for these. I did locate the Fire and Fury document but unless I just can't seen it there isn't for instance a breakdown saying how many tanks in a Panzer Company, plus I don't understand the Marder organisation.  It seems to say only 4 Marders per Company, whilst I would have expected 4 per platoon.

Thanks for the links.,

Regards.

The numbers in the F&F PDF seem to be given in their game terms/figure ratio. IIRC, a full-strength Panzergrenadierkompanie under Heeresstruktur 4 would have been equipped with either 10 M113 AFVs or 11 Marder IFVs.

As for tanks, IIRC, a company would consist of 1 company command tank and three platoons of four MBTs each.

Maybe take a look at the Wikipedia article's organigrams, they seem to be correct. As for the main terms:

Kpz: Kampfpanzerwagen, MBT ref. to Leopard I and II MBTs and IIRC M48 A2 G A2 in "Heimatschutz" territorial units
Spz: Schuetzenpanzerwagen, IFV ref. to Marders
MTW: Mannschaftstransportwagen, APC ref. to M113

[von der Tann]

Here you have the structure of a Panzergrenadierkompanie in Heeresstruktur 4 (1980 - 1992)
https://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/gliederung/stan/bw_pzgrenbtl80.htm

Several other charts can be found here (although notice that the PzGrenKp is listed under Herresstruktur 3 although it says Heeresstruktur 4 on the chart itself):
https://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/gliederung/stan/stan.htm

I joined in 1995 - so I can give you a more detailed description of units during Heeresstruktur 5 (N) if need be. 

BUT you have to keep in mind that the companies and batallions never "went into action" all by themselves. Under the directive of "Kampf der verbundenen Waffen" you can bet that a PzGrenKp would always detach one or two platoons to a MBT company and recieve one or two MBT platoons. Sometimes you would just get an additional MBT platoon attached to the company and "run around" with 5 platoons in total - totally against the STAN (Stärke- und Ausstattungsnachweisung - in English TOE - table of organization and equipment) regulations. So have fun mixing those platoons ... for fun add a VB (forward observer artillery) or some engineers ...

[carlos marighela]

There were three Marders per platoon in HS4. Two contained infantry squads and carried the Milans, the third was PHQ. Total of 11 Marders per company, 3x platoons of 3 plus another 2 in CHQ.

Visual outline of the vehicle holdings here:

https://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/gliederung/stan/bw_pzgrenbtl80.htm

Panzer companies were of 13 MBT, be that Leopard 1, 2 or with the territorial units M48s

1 at CHQ and 3x platoons of four vehicles each. Under the following structure introduced in the ‘nineties that changed to four platoons of three vehicles.

You’ll find detailed holdings of recce assets here:

https://pzaufkl.de/heeresstruktur-4-1980-1990

[SJWi]

Chris/Carlos/Von Der Tann, many thanks for the speedy responses and the links. I believe you have helped me "crack it". Just need my mate to 3D print loads of Leo2s ands Marders and I'm ready to roll.

Cheers.

[Jemima Fawr]

Yeah, sorry, I wrote the F&F orbats and they're geared to the 'game' strength of 1 vehicle representing 2-3 actuals and 1 infantry stand representing a section.

11 Marders per Company - HQ of 2 and three platoons of 3.  The 'spare' Marder in the CHQ contained the 'Reserve' Section and was basically a method of making up the dismounted manpower compared to earlier organisations.  M113 companies had only 1 vehicle in the CHQ, as the section strength was higher.

A Panzer Brigade had:
2x Panzer Battalions, each of 3x Panzer Companies.
1x Mixed Panzer Battalion, each of 2x Panzer Companies and 1x Panzergrenadier Company (Marder).
1x Panzergrenadier Battalion, of 3x Panzergrenadier Companies (Marder).

A Panzergrenadier Brigade had:
1x Mixed Panzergrenadier Battalion, of 2x Panzergrenadier Companies (Marder) & 1x Panzer Company
2x Panzergrenadier Battalions, each of 2x Panzergrenadier Companies (Marder) and 1x Panzergrenadier (MTW) Company (M113G)
1x Panzer Battalion, of 3x Panzer Companies

[Jemima Fawr]

I've got a chart here saying who had what type of panzer and when: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/2019/09/02/beware-of-the-leopard-part-2-1980s-west-german-tank-distribution/

Note however, that the chart doesn't track minor upgrades within a type.  So for example, where it says 'Leopard 1A1A1', they could actually have been upgraded to Leopard 1A1A2, 1A1A3 or 1A1A4 within that timeframe and before upgrading to a major new type such as Leopard 1A5 or Leopard 2.

[SJWi]

Jemima, thanks, very useful. You have also answered another question I had around the mix of APCs in a Panzer Grenadier Battalion. I now understand. I plan to model Pz Brigade 9 from the 3rd Pz Division from circa late 1983 so looks like I will be acquiring Leo 2s and Marders. We plan to game 1-1 in 1/600 with a 3-vehicle infantry platoon or  2 x 2 Leo 2 "sections" per 30 x 30mm base. Should look awesome!

Regards.       

[Jemima Fawr]

Re Panzergrenadier Platoons: There was no platoon HQ vehicle, so the Pl Commander and Pl Sgt rode with one of the sections (like the Soviets).  At the start of the 80s one of the sections in each platoon carried a MILAN, while the other two sections had Carl-Gustav 84mm MAW.  By the end of the 80s, every section had a MILAN and the Carl-Gustavs had all been cascaded down to Territorial units.  Every section also had a PzF 44 and platoon commanders also often carried a 40mm grenade-launcher.  Everyone else had G3, plus one MG3 per section and Uzi for the vehicle crews.

Edited to add:  MILAN could be mounted on and fired from the Marder turret.  I can't remember offhand if the M113G had a MILAN mount.

[Jemima Fawr]

I should also add that in theory, all panzers in the battalion would be of the same basic type (M48A2, M48A2GA2, 1A1A1, 1A2, 1A3, 1A4, 1A5, 2A0, 2A1 or 2A4), as units would be re-equipped en masse.  However, sub-types could be mixed, as minor upgrades would take place in small batches.

In terms of organic fire support:

'Pure' Panzer Battalions had none.

Mixed Panzer Battalions had a platoon of 3 (?) M125 81mm mortar carriers.

'Pure' Panzergrenadier Battalions had a Mortar Company, consisting of 6x 120mm mortars, mounted on M113G 'Panzermoerser 120' and a pair of Beobachtunspanzers (de-gunned Jagdpanzer Kanone).

Mixed Panzergrenadier Battalions had none.

Brigade support for both Panzer and Panzergrenadier Brigades consisted of a Jagdpanzer Company, Panzer Pioneer Company, Panzer Recce Platoon, Panzer Artillery Battalion and Artillery Escort Platoon.

Divisional MANPADS, Panzer-Flak and NBC Defence units would also be distributed among front-line battlegroups.

[SJWi]

Jemima, thanks again. Do you have any detail on the Brigade support elements you refer to, plus the Panzer-Flak. I want a few Gepards!

 By the way I don’t think there was a mount for firing the MILAN from an M113.

 Cheers.

[Jemima Fawr]

Jemima, thanks again. Do you have any detail on the Brigade support elements you refer to, plus the Panzer-Flak. I want a few Gepards!

 By the way I don’t think there was a mount for firing the MILAN from an M113.

 Cheers.

The Gepards were in platoons of 3 vehicles; 3 platoons per battery and six batteries per division, plus a similar number of Redeye MANPADS, carried in Unimog trucks or possibly Transportpanzer Fuchs.  There were also a surprisingly large number of single and twin-barrelled Rh-202 MK20 AA guns floating about with rear-area HQ, transport and security units, as well as local defence units.  Even the divisional NBC Defence units included 20mm AA guns.

In the late 1970s, Jagdpanzer Companies were large units with an HQ of 1x Kanonenjagdpanzer, four platoons of 4x Kanonenjagdpanzer and two platoons of 4x Raketenjagdpanzer 2.  However, the Jagdpanzer Companies belonging to Panzer Brigades had started converting to Jaguar 1 in 1978 (HQ of 1x Jaguar 1 and three platoons of 4x Jaguar 1) and this conversion was completed during 1982.

In Panzergrenadier Brigades, the remaining Raketenpanzer 2 were all deleted from the Jagdpanzer Companies, leaving them as gun-only units for a time.  However, they started converting to Jaguar 2 from 1983 (HQ of 1x Jaguar 2 and three platoons of 4x Jaguar 2) and within a couple of years the remaining Kanonenjagdpanzers had been cascaded down to Territorial units or sent back for conversion to other types such as Beobachtungspanzers).

Brigade Recce Platoons had 8x PzSpW Luchs.  In peacetime they were administratively grouped with the divisional Recce Battalion, so beware of peacetime Recce Battalion orbats where the the battalion has colossal numbers of Luchs.  I've also seen orbats where they're listed twice - simultaneously in the divisional Recce Battalion AND in the Brigade HQ.

Brigade Panzer Pioneer Companies had an HQ of 1x Transportpanzer Fuchs and three platoons, two with 3x Transportpanzer Fuchs and one with Uniomg trucks.  They also had a platoon of 3x Pioneerpanzers (mostly Pionierpanzer Leopard, though some used M48AC fitted as dozers, many of which were de-gunned), a platoon of 4x M48 AVLBs (increasingly replaced by Biber AVLBs during the 1980s) and a platoon of M548A2G Skorpion mine-launchers.

The Brigade Panzer Artillery Battalion had three batteries of 6x M109 SP 155mm howitzers.  OP vehicles were M113G, though some decrepit Schutzenpanzerwagen-Kurz 22-2 OP vehicles were still running around during the early 1980s.  A specialist Panzerbeocachtunswagen M113G was developed during the 1980s that looked quite radically different to the standard M113G, but you're ok with standard M113G during your 1983 timeframe.  Some Beobachtunspanzers (Kanonenjagdpanzer conversions) may also have been used by SP artillery units.

[Jemima Fawr]

Oh, I checked and MILAN could be mounted on the M113G (as well as the Fuchs, in the case of the Recce Bns).