Soviet VDV To&E Mid 1980s?

[SJWi]

Having played and enjoyed a small game of SDttrR yesterday, I rather rashly agreed to buy a mates unpainted VDV as an interesting add-on to my Soviets.  I have 3 BMD2s and a few bases of infantry, which is enough to be going on with. My mate commented that I could add an ASU-85 or two to the force, but I'm unsure whether the ASU-85 and BMD2 were used together or if the BMD replaced the ASU. My reference books are pretty silent on the matter, and Google has so far let me down.

Any help out there??

Thanks.     

[carlos marighela]

BMD-2s came in in the mid to late 1980s (intro date of 1985 but then lag factor).  Org charts for the VDV divisions in 1984 show the ASU-85 assault gun battalion present. IIRc they stayed around with the VDV Airborne Divisions until the end of the Cold War. They were never part of the Air Assault Brigades, which technically speaking weren't part of the VDV anyway although that's where most of them came from and they had a similar function.

[Rick]

Iirc Afghanistan saw the end of the ASU 85 - they simply weren't capable of front-line combat. If memory serves, airborne companies had a weapons platoon with BTR-D's (the stretched BMD without turret) carrying support weapons sections. I shall have to go back and consult my books and army lists!
Any discussion of the VDV quickly bogs down into which sort - the Front level airborne assault units, the long-range recce units or the independant airborne brigades, not to mention the companies of Naval Infantry which were armed and equipped identically to the VDV (except perhaps for a black uniform?).

[Rick]

As a further update, I have an in-service date of 1987 for the BMD2, although the sources I have also suggested it may have been fielded in small numbers (3 per company at most) for a few years earlier than that but certainly no earlier than about 1984/5. The ASU-85 was withdrawn from front-line service early-mid 80's so would not have been used with the BMD2 (the last ASU-85's in Afghanistan were used as part of the defences around Kabul, in heavily fortified static positions). However, the Nona (120mm on BTRD chassis) entered service in 1984/5 as far as I can tell so would probably make a better support unit with the BMD2's.
Hope this helps.

[CapnJim]

My Jane's Armour and Artillery 1991-1992 states the BMD2 was "first observed" in 1988, which likely means it was in service a bit before that.  Initial deployment was apparently 9 per airborne regiment, but from then on replaced the BMD1 on a vehicle-per-vehicle basis.

As for the ASU-85, it lists it as still in service with the USSR as of publication.

Based on that info, both were in service in the late 80s...

[SJWi]

Chaps, thanks for the information. As SDttRR needs a pretty low vehicle count ( at least for my 6 x 4' table) I reckon I can get away with at least one ASU-85 with my BMDs.

[cuprum]

This SPG was officially withdrawn from service in 1985. Of course, it took some time to replace these SPGs in the troops. They were replaced in the troops by the SPG "Nona" 2S9, which began to enter the troops in 1981.
BMD-2 was accepted into service in 1985. So if these machines could be used simultaneously, then only for a very limited time.

[SJWi]

Cuprum, thanks for the insight. Unfortunately no-one seems to produce a NONA in 15mm or else I would look at that. As I tried to research deeper I also found reference ( and pictures of) an airborne APC called a BTRD. Some sources describe it as a "heavy weapons towing vehicle", others as an APC, as it can carry more personnnel than a turreted BMD .Do you know what was the relationship organisationally between the BMD and BTRD?

I've just found several books I bought back in the 1980s that seemed to contain the "state of the art" public domain information available in the West at that time. Loads of information on Tank and Motor Rifle units but frustratingly thin on the VDV.


 
 

[cuprum]

I am not a big expert on modern armed forces, but I think this article will answer some of your questions (automatic translation from Russian):

https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/136600-bronya-krylatoy-pehoty-chast-2-ya.html?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Mod edit: no filesharing of copyrighted material.

[carlos marighela]

I think you'll find the BTR-D was used primarily with the support platoons within the airborne/ air assault battalions. Sub units like the automatic grenade launcher platoon, the SAM platoon etc. The platoons within the companies were organised in a similar manner to Motor Rifles with three BMDs (BMD-1 or 2) each. Presumably BTR-Ds were also used elsewhere within the regiment and division, often enough as towing vehicles.

I have no idea what scale Seven Days to the River Rhine operates at but if it represents vehicles at 1:1 then you might want at least a couple more ASU-85s if you are intending to field any. It's pretty unusual for single AFVs to be detached in most armies, the Soviets in particular, Usually they don't operate in at the level of the lowest tactical level, ie a platoon. There are occasions, in Western armies where a half platoon may operate, because they have the command infrastructure to do this but armour is big on mutual support. The singular instance I can think of in Soviet doctrine is the advance guard of a MRR/ MRB where an MBT might be paired with a motor rifle platoon as the forward recce element. Naturally you may get down to a single vehicle through attrition, break down etc but doctrinally it's rare to see them deployed that way.

Of course if SDRR works on a vehicle = a platoon like Command Decision and a few other systems did you could probably justify the single vehicle.

[SJWi]

Carlos, thanks.  SDttRR operates at 1-1 for vehicles and a base of infantry equals a squad.  As it has unlimited weapon ranges unless you have a big table ( which I don't), I normally only field a troop of tanks plus some support vehicles and a platoon or two of infantry. We view it as more a "beer and pretzels" game so 100% historical accuracy isn't top of the agenda. I do like to "keep in period" though, hence my question about the date of the BMD2. I just wish I'd kept more of my stock of books from the '80s, albeit I suspect they weren't as accurate as I thought!     

[Jemima Fawr]

Cuprum, thanks for the insight. Unfortunately no-one seems to produce a NONA in 15mm or else I would look at that. As I tried to research deeper I also found reference ( and pictures of) an airborne APC called a BTRD. Some sources describe it as a "heavy weapons towing vehicle", others as an APC, as it can carry more personnnel than a turreted BMD .Do you know what was the relationship organisationally between the BMD and BTRD?

I've just found several books I bought back in the 1980s that seemed to contain the "state of the art" public domain information available in the West at that time. Loads of information on Tank and Motor Rifle units but frustratingly thin on the VDV.

The Nona's alphanumeric designation is the 2S9, so companies might be listing it as 2S9 instead of Nona.  Yes, it's based on the BTR-D chassis.  It was also called SO-120 in NATO sources before we knew what it's proper name was and I remember Heroics & Ros listing it as such in their 1/300th range.  QRF, Battlefront and Armies Army all did them in 15mm, though I don't know if they still do at this moment (QRF have 'difficulties', AA seem to be out of production and Battlefront periodically put things out of production).  Butler's Printed Models also do it in 15mm.

[Jemima Fawr]

Cuprum, thanks for the insight. Unfortunately no-one seems to produce a NONA in 15mm or else I would look at that. As I tried to research deeper I also found reference ( and pictures of) an airborne APC called a BTRD. Some sources describe it as a "heavy weapons towing vehicle", others as an APC, as it can carry more personnnel than a turreted BMD .Do you know what was the relationship organisationally between the BMD and BTRD?

I've just found several books I bought back in the 1980s that seemed to contain the "state of the art" public domain information available in the West at that time. Loads of information on Tank and Motor Rifle units but frustratingly thin on the VDV.

I forgot to mention that the BTR-D (introduced in the late 1970s) is essentially a 'stretched', turretless BMD with an extra roadwheel.  It was used to carry the heavy weapons squads, such as AGS-17 30mm AGLs or ATGMs.  Some had ZU-23-2 AAA mounted on the roof.

[SJWi]

Jemima, thanks. I've looked at the QRF website which seems now pretty impossible to navigate except via the search function, and it has no photos.  They seem to produce both the ASU95 and 2S9/NONA.  I might just take the risk, as the only alternative seems a pretty old Butlers model.

[Jemima Fawr]

Jemima, thanks. I've looked at the QRF website which seems now pretty impossible to navigate except via the search function, and it has no photos.  They seem to produce both the ASU95 and 2S9/NONA.  I might just take the risk, as the only alternative seems a pretty old Butlers model.

DON'T buy anything from QRF at the moment!  There are major issues: https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1202356471899954&id=100063768362241