So does size doesn't matter or is what matters is if you can use it?

[tikitang]

(once painted you'll never see the difference)

I've heard this said before, but I find it's not really true.

I painted some Biblical figures some time in 2021 (I think), both advertised as 28mm (North Star Sea People vs Essex Canaanites) and found there to be a massive difference in scale, even when painted (and I'm not referring to the 54mm Goliath figure):

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=135281.0

The effect was very jarring for me.

In general, as I've said elsewhere, I've come to find I don't even like mixing different sculptors on the same table, let alone scales. My new rule is that all projects I undertake must have all the required miniatures by the same sculptor or manufacturer!

[nozza_uk]

Was talking about size differences at my wargames club. Got sent these via email.





Guess the tabletop mimics real life?

[carlos marighela]

The story behind 25mm/28mm miniatures being all over the place was that retailers didn't want to carry different miniature scales, so manufacturers fibbed a little and used terms like "heroic" to create larger miniatures (more details, etc.) that supposedly had the same scale as the mini's the retailers already had. And, AFAIK, there's no standard for *proportions* of miniatures, other than "true" vs "heroic", which are even more all over the place.

Myself, I'm playing miniature agnostic rulesets for generic fantasy miniatures, so will obsessively need to play each side (eg. heroes vs enemies) with all of the same mini's from the same manufacturer, hopefully with the same weapon loadout as their stat sheet!

https://alkony.enerla.net/english/the-nexus/miniatures-nexus/miniature-hobby/miniature-size-miniature-scale

Which would be a fabulous theory were it not equally applicable to 15/18mm. It's equally true outside the hobby. Plenty of model car manufacturers make fit the box, despite being a nominal 1/43 or 1/64.  That's not to mention the makers of plastic kits, who often get dimensions wrong or the confusion in model railway circles as to what constitutes 'O gauge' or HO.

Differing wargames figure sizes between ranges and even within ranges (yes Warlord Gnomes we are looking at you) has ever been the case. It has a variety of reasons. Individual sculptors, tastes and skills being probably the preeminent one. Even there sculptors are known to vary over their lifetime, usually making things slightly bigger as they get older and their eyesight declines.

A few companies seem to like the notion that if their size is unique they will lock in a market. That probably works best if the subject matter is also unique. Less so if you a latecomer to say Napoleonics when people may have existing ranges they are trying to match.

Most I suspect are just bound to whatever their sculptor provides and if they use multiple sculptors, size and style will naturally vary. Bigger sculpts and bigger weapons often make for more robust items and let's face it there are singularly few ranges where actual human proportions and exact scaling applies, they are all caricatures to a greater or lesser extent.

Ultimately personal taste is the arbiter. I don't mind some variation and many of the most glaring issues can be resolved with the way the figures are based. Naturally enough I draw the line where two ranges would serve as avatars for either midgets or giants for every figure. There's a limit to the range of human proportions and how they present within a given population, ie not universally.

[FifteensAway]

Revisiting this thread and a thought occurred to me - why is there so much figure variation when companies (those that do, anyway) use the same 'dollies' even across different sculptors?   

No idea if they use different sculptors but as a for instance, QRF's German East Africa range clearly uses a standard set of dollies based on figure poses and that keeps almost the entire range a vary standard size.  The only notable exception I've seen in the range - and I believe I have all the figures they've made so far for GEA specifically (waiting on paint) - are the native figures, those seem a bit smaller and varied in pose so maybe a different sculptor not using those 'dollies'.  Sure, I'd prefer more pose variety across the ranges versus the rather limited set used for all the figures (except as noted), but I also like knowing that the figures all work well together.  I think Peter Pig may be in a similar mode - though I think Martin does most of the figure sculpting. 

So, why do other manufacturers not use a similar 'standard' dolly for conformity?  Just a thought.

[tin shed gamer]

This comes up all the time and it's a can worm's.
First 28mm is not a scale . It's an aesthetic.
It's defined by each manufacturer. The most common definition being foot to eye. Those companies that invested in 1/56 scale model kits and transferred their use to wargaming set 28mm as being foot to the top of their head. Simply as that interpretation suites their investment in 1/56 vehicles.
The irony is bugger all in life is completely standardized Your shoe size isn't standard a cross manufacturers anymore than your blue jeans are. Worst of all a US pint is not the same size as a UK pint!
Unless your sales model is dependent on being compatible with another manufacturers product then there is absolutely no incentive to waste time and effort on ensuring compatibly.
Scale model manufacturing ( model kits) is run on selling the illusion of being in scale. Nothing at the size people game at is. There's artistic licence and production constraints with everything the only thing that reduces the noticeable production tolerances is the near to 1-1 you get.
If you wish to check for yourself then simply play spot the difference. If everything were truly to scale then it would be exceptionally difficult to identify one kit from another once built.
Even 3D printing isn't insulated from these issues. There's always the need for artistic licence and knowledge of production tolerances. There's a vast difference between resizing and rescaling.
The thing that's forgotten by most people is they're literally watching an industry organically evolve/ grow up with in their own hobby lifetime. It's been made up as it goes along and attempts to adapt as technology has rocketed.
For example moulds have become softer and lower heat. To the point you can use plasticard on masters for metal miniatures. Your masters come out of the moulding process virtually unchanged. When only a decade ago it was quite common for masters to physically burn in moulding  Or moulds collapse under the heat and pressure.( That is soul destroying when your work crumbles and melts with a mould.) The castings could be upto 3% smaller over all than the master which could shave off over a 1.5mm once you get a casting from a master mould and then a product mould.
As a sculptor I can tell you one of the first conversation you have on new projects is figure dimensions be it height basing size,and style.
28mm foot to eye is much more comfortable to sculpt than 28mm to the top of the head. Neither is particularly hard but one just flows a little easier.
Phrase like heroic aren't ment to deceive simply a phrase that was used to try to define an aesthetic. Quite frankly it failed.  There's a lot of BS ,pretention ,and wishful thinking when it comes to some companies marketing. Just like any other set of products you purchase.
The difference is your more emotionally invested in your hobby . You don't really get worked up if your a 9 in the blue trainer ,and 9.5 in the red.
The simply there's as much variation in miniatures as there is in opinions and tastes. All of which change over time.

[Grumpy Gnome]

I spent an awful lot of time trying to work this issue out, especially when I tried to figure out which scale of vehicles to use.

The point about scale being more of an aesthetic than an accurate proportion is spot on.

My regimented mind wanted clearly defined and marked proportions to ensure visual consistency. That did not mean I wanted every person to be the same height but every M16 to be the same size…. if you catch my drift.

And that just does not exist when it comes to what gaming and model manufacturers produce.

It literally comes down to trial and error to match individual taste which is a time intensive labor, like almost every other element of this hobby.

The best you can hope for is a table with minis that “look right” to you and the other players present.

[Norm]

The 6mm people have to worry about 6mm - 8mm
The 10mm people have to worry about 10 - 12mm
The 15mm people have to worry about 15 - 18mm
The 28’s as you point out are in the 25mm - 32mm range.

So I think the dilemma of comparative scale is universal amongst wargamers.

I generally go for a favourite manufacturer or range and will then be happy with anything that sits around that size and I am fairly tolerant size difference. If you stuck me, my neighbour and my son side by side and tried to give label us with one ‘size’ or degree of ‘chunkiness’ etc, you would be hard pushed.

As a topic, I feel the gamer just needs to be resigned to it, rather than allow it to be an obstacle to putting stuff down on the table.

[Elbows]

The only time scale like this genuinely bothers me is in games where entire units are notably smaller than their counterparts.  When you have a "regiment" of 25mm up against a "heroic 28mm", it's very noticeable.  Not so much in general gaming.

In stuff like 15mm armoured vehicles, as long as the platoon is all the same model, I don't mind a minor size difference between one Sherman and the next.

This is one of my favourite images:

[tin shed gamer]

There's some interesting and sensible points being raised.
Something that's often not know or overlooked in the conversation about scale is the reality that the majority of scale model kits such as tanks. Don't actually have human figures/ crews in exactly the same scale as the tank. Simply to aid in the aesthetics and presentation.
One the note about being happy with weapons being the same size and some natural variations in height.
The honest truth is when this is actually done it often makes bugger all difference to most people any thing taller than any thing else is instantly called out as being oversized heroics .
We actually confirmed this through a practical test here on LAF to the point of it actually becoming a millstone for me.Which has take a few years to shift.
If you remember I sculpted a Dad's Army type Unit of Home Guard.Made up of caricatures of LAF members. As a collective you all agreed on 28mm foot to eye being equivalent to an average height of 5'9"(ish)  so everyone one was given the slightly bobble headed look and the height adjusted to each member. Turns out most of you are lanky sods.So only four figure's were in fact 28mm foot to eye every one else being between 26 and 30.5.
All the webbing, weapons and equipment. We're standardized all being made to exactly the same dimensions ( just as the sailors equipment in the photo). In fact the weapons were almost Identical in length to Warlord weapons only a little thicker just to last on a table a little better.
They were cast and everyone who wanted them got them. They ended up being released as  the PMs were mounting. Since then all I ever get is they're too big they're heroic.
In fact it became a blanket assumption that all my WW2 are the same size. Simply because these figures were for want of a better word 'scaled' No one has even noticed that the rifles looked small on some figures or the webbing buried others. Just that Some are tall therefore all are too big.
I personally dislike them for this reason as their original purpose is lost in translation. To the point I've finally nagged enough that the company that has them has caved and soon as I've made replacements in 28mm the originals will be scrapped.

It's just one of those odd hobby quirks. People are always demanding realism with the unspoken caveat just as long as everyone is exactly the same height.
I don't know if it's a hangover from the early days of toy soldiers and napoleonics or childhoods spent playing with LEGO
Either way it's omnipresent and border line Eternal.

[Elbows]

I see people decrying almost every brand of miniature for over-sized weapons/barrels/swords/pikes...and it makes me think "Have you ever actually handled or gamed with a miniature?"

[Cat]

I'm fine with oversized weapons, I greatly prefer that they not turn into spaghetti and/or break.
 
But as G.G. commented, I don't mind size variations in figure height as long as the rifles and back packs look about the same.  People vary a lot.  Standard issue gear is standard issue gear.  Pre-18th century, things get easier.

[carlos marighela]

In the timeless words of innumerable Quarter Master Sergeants the world around. " Lad, it doesn't matter if it's too big or too small as long as it fits. "

[Grumpy Gnome]

I'm fine with oversized weapons, I greatly prefer that they not turn into spaghetti and/or break.
 
But as G.G. commented, I don't mind size variations in figure height as long as the rifles and back packs look about the same.  People vary a lot.  Standard issue gear is standard issue gear.  Pre-18th century, things get easier.

Fair point about playability when it comes to weapon size but I dislike when weapons start to look like foam larp swords and nerf guns.

Weapons a bit chunky are very different from ones so big they look impossible to wield. GW has a history of such ridiculously oversized weapons but not on all of their models.

And as much as I originally wanted a strictly regulated scale system in the end I was resigned to accept it as unachievable with the current marker of manufacturers. Once I accepted that I decided I actually preferred the slightly cartoonish aesthetics of the Warlord WW2 figures to the more realistically proportioned Perry figures. I think the reason I wanted a more strictly accurate and consistent scale system was so I could avoid having to decide what I liked the look of…. as well as what figures from what companies would look good together since it is rare for any one company to make all the figures I would want for a project.

And with plastics I like to be able to kitbash from different manufacturers without too many headaches.

[Belligerentparrot]

I see people decrying almost every brand of miniature for over-sized weapons/barrels/swords/pikes...and it makes me think "Have you ever actually handled or gamed with a miniature?"

I'm not sure anyone was complaining about oversized weapons as such. The original complaints were about inconsistency: i.e. two models with ostensibly the same weapon, but one is much larger than the other.

It is also possible to make relatively small weapons that are robust. A lot (though not all) of the Rogue Trader and Confrontation weapon sprues from GW are a good case in point. But things get silly-looking, to me at least, if you combine them with GW stuff from after the decision was taken to deliberately enlarge weapons so it was clear who had what on the tabletop.

[Luigi]

This is something that used to bother me to no end in the early stages of my hobby life.
To the point that I was always bothered by inconsistencies between generations of models supposedly representing the same army (looking at you GW with your plastic dwarfs from 3 different editions and metal slayers from 25 years ago).
But then as I acquired more and more older models via lots online or  I ended up buying from multiple manufacturer  I just grew to accept and actually cherish the differences.

As others have said it helps if the models are painted (and BASED!) consistently and it does make a difference if  they're being used in a skirmish game with a handful of other miniatures or if  it's a rank and flank wargame  where individual models get lost into a unit.